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a hahn — Deck Analysis — Nov 2, 2011 — 3,867 views
“The idea behind T-Tar is to get a quick T-Tar to hit a couple Darkness Howls and do at least 20 (30 if using SP Darkness Energy) to everything on the board”
Nice Article Dude but (concerning the quote above), Special Dark only affects the damage done to the active so it would do 30 to the active and 20 to the rest of the board. Sure you knew this and just a typo :)
Also: You mention about Max Potion to heal Tyranitar then Solrock / Lunatone to stop your opponent healing. This will also stop you healing though, hence Max Potion will be useless and Tyranitar kinda loses its ability to tank….
Spread always sounds so cool, but there aren’t many likely options for it. Most of them require combinations of Pokemon and/or the spreading attacker is a Stage 2. Tyranitar Prime is (in my opinion) the most likely to work early because of its single Energy cost, but there’s the problem you addressed about it hurting Larvitar and Pupitar. (Not even mentioning Hydreigon and getting two DCE onto it to attack on the second turn….)
I’m not the biggest fan of the Ross engine, but the Vilebox list looks neat. I wish the heal blocking could be used without having two Pokemon on your bench to tech into other decks though. Great way to block Off Max Potion and Blissey Prime.
I’m glad we have an article that doesn’t guess at the match ups when they aren’t tested thoroughly enough. Great change, needs to be done more often.
I’m personally pretty pumped for Kyurem due to it’s spread capabilities. If you’re main focus is to spread as much damage as possible, I think combining Kyurem with Feralgatr, Kingdra, and Rocky Helmet could be a decent way to maximize your damage output. You spread 30 with Kyurem, add 10 more for each Kingdra, and have the additional 2 damage counters with rocky helmet, and you can really add some pressure onto your opponents side of the field.
It just sucks that Feralgatr and Kingdra are both stage 2’s. Kind of slows the deck down. I really want to test this idea out, but unfortunately I don’t really have a lot of free time to do so :/
You could add a few Dragons on the Tyranitar list to have a double function as outrage user and spreading the opponent out
It seems to me the two non-Vilebox lists would do well to run Eviolite. Also, unless some unforeseen development is going to diminish Zekrom play, trying to use Floatzel/Blastoise as an energy acceleration combo seems fairly ill-fated.
Regarding the Vilebox list, once you have Vileplume in play, the Lunatone/Solrock combo are only blocking Blissey Prime, right? Seems it bit clunky both in terms of your set-up and late-game bench space, unless I’m missing something.
Ultimately, Glaciate just does too little damage for too much energy to really be an effective archetype. I’m sure Kyurem will see plenty of play as a anti-Reshiram/Donphan tech, but as a primary attacker, I think it may be worse than T-tar.
Eviolite deserves more of a mention than not at all, it keeps Kyurem alive for longer.
Yeah, that was a slip up on the SP Dark. Sorry about that.
However, I stand by what I said about Max Potion and the Healing Blockers. I think you read into the article a bit. Let me explain:
1) I never said that you have to play both. I merely mentioned both as techs in the deck. Both are at least somewhat viable.
2) What I said about both cards individually is completely true. Max Potion makes T-Tar a solid tank and the Healing Blockers… block healing.
3) Even if you do play both, you can be wise in your deployment of the cards. Consider: You get an early T-Tar and do spread damage. Then you get hit in the face for 120 by the dragons. Well, your next turn would be an excellent time to play Max Potion to keep T-Tar alive another turn. You play it. Then you spread against (40 damage on their whole bench, 60 active). They hit you against. You play it again (second copy, Junk Arm). You spread again (60 bench, 90 active). The hit you. You don’t play Max Potion and just spread (80 bench, 110 active). The KO you. You promote another T-Tar and NOW play down the blockers to lock that damage (possibly 510 total damage) on the field. This is a perfectly reasonable way to play both Max Potion and the Damage Blockers.
They do not have to be mutually exclusive.
I do check facts a lot. When I make mistakes, they tend to be just a slip up. I simply forgot to clarify the 30 active 20 to bench concept, and it was worded poorly.
Thanks for the comment and the rating!
Good point. :)
I like that combo, but it seems to be way to slow. The spread had to be fast to keep up.
This was supposed to be in response to Pokedex
Personally, I do not think that Kyurem will be Tier 1 as the frontliner of a deck. I agree that it’s damage output is too low for too high of a cost.
The Blastzel list, I guess is more of a BlastZel deck with a Kyurem starter to soften up the bench. I absolutely agree that it struggles against ZPST, but it’s other match ups are not terrible.
However, just because a deck is not tier 1 does not mean that it can’t have an article :)
I hear ya, but I left it out for a couple reasons:
1) The lists are fairly tight. Most lists are pretty tight right now. That’s why I’m not too sure of Eviolite’s place in the meta outside of ZPST. ZPST already runs some defenders and has more flexibility in list structure than other decks. The problem with Kyurem and Reshiram is that there are hefty support Pokemon that need set up. This take a lot of deck space. This limits the options when running cards like Eviolite.
2) Because there are bound to be set up Pokemon in any Kyurem deck (execpt maybe Electrode versions), Eviolite is too eadily played around with Pokemon Catcher. So what if it take another turn to KO Kyurem with an Eviolite because I will simply take out your support, you will not be able to attach energy fast enough, and I will that the KO over two turns. No big deal.
In general, I think people are overreacting a bit to Eviolite. It is just to easy to get around and too few decks have the list space/ right Pokemon to take full advantage.
Vilebox seems scary, lol.
I think you can cut 1 Kyurem for an Eviolite at least, just to have the option available. I do agree the lists are all very tight.
Great article on an awesome card, however I have to say that I don’t see the ross style deck, or any others like it, working out anymore. I think kyurem (assuming it does get popular) will kill the ross engine. First of all, solosis has 30 hp so as soon as a loaded kyurem hits the field all of your solosis are dead. This means the ross deck will rely on going first and having either duosion or reuniclus out turn two. If kyurem goes first and is loaded turn two you won’t have a reuniclus out in the game which defeats the purpose of the deck. Also, the ross build relies heavily on twins, which kyurem won’t activate until its most likely too late.
Well, the Ross-variant doesn’t boast any way of speeding up the energy-attachments, thus making it reliant a pretty rapidly setup lock. And you can’t really do anything against Magnezone, who’ll simply wait on the bench until it has enough energy to take down Kyurem – a kill to which you’ll have no immediate response, considering you’ll have to attach manually three times pr. kyurem…
“This card is an Emboar for Water Types.”
Is that like saying that telephones are cell phones for houses?
The radio (or CD player) is the iPod for cars?
Cash is the credit card for paper lovers?
Analog is the digital for old folks?
Magic is the Pokemon for geeks?
I thought that Kyurem wasn’t legal until after Regionals.
But the picture at the beginning was funny.
Emboar is a better type and can utilize Shuckle.
I think 180 for three energy compatable with Feraligatr is a pretty good damage output.
If you play Solrock Lunatone and Max Potion play Seeker/SSU.
Seeker/SSU whichever one has been hit harder, Max Potion stuff, and then put it back down.
It makes Max Potion 2 cards, but in TTar i’ll take it.
the problem with that is you want to start with Kyurem and Kyurem can be played under trainerlock.
This is the way that the current Ross deck works… it’s just kinda the nature of the beast. The hope is that you can put 120 damage on a benched Zekrom and then OHKO that Magnezone and lock them out of the remaining Magnezones. That’s just the nature of the beast
It is not legal until after Regionals. I just figured a change of pace article would be appreciated. I will be back with a BIG Regional preview soon.
Yes, Emboar is hands down better for eveything but Water.
As for Shuckle, I think it is pretty well established that this is now more of a gimmick draw engine now.
Sorry, I have no idea what glitch is going on… this was supposed to be in reply to coolestman22
I get what you are saying. I just think that Kyurem is rather limited by itself in the meta. I might be mistaken, but I think this will be a played cards, but not extremely widespread. So, Ross will be ok. Also, you have to remember that Kyurem will require energy acceleration to get going. This will slow it down and likely give you two or three turns to get those basics to at least the stage 1 evolution.
Yeah, but because that 180 is spread out it is manageable with stuff like Max Potion, Serperior, Blissey, etc. unless you play with the healing blockers. However, those blockers are Catcher bait and your opponent will likely be able to take a prize a turn or so.
Glad you mention DCL in there… to me this is a sort of must-have tech in any spread deck, even if its just 1-1. Granted I have only recently started testing with Kuyrem/DCL and it most certainly is clunky right now, but my goodness, when you purposely alter play style to not bother with exact KOing stuff (getting easier and easier now with such high HPs) and bring out DCL mid-late game and attach just one Psychic or Rainbow energy, it can be total game changer. A few games I got two or three prizes from the one attack.
Even so, I think it will be an extremely tough matchup for the Ross. It will put a lot of pressure on the ross player and I don’t see it being too terribly difficult to get a kyurem up and running turn two. I hope you are right though because Ross variants are my favorite at the moment and I love how creative players get with them. Also, though I’m not sure they are the best techs for kyurem, lunatone and solrock blocking blissey drops kill another very important aspect of the Ross and it becomes dependent on seekers to remove damage off of the board.
As my friend says it, “Kyurem is not the main attacker. Feraligatr is the main attacker. Kyurem is to build up damage on everyone and have the ‘gater finish them off.”
Also, though I’m not sure they are the best techs for kyurem, lunatone and solrock blocking blissey drops kill another very important aspect of the deck and it becomes dependent on seekers to remove damage off of the board.
Kyurem is looking GREAT in the truth right now. Anyone else agree?
Is water energy acceleration really necessary? how about electrode prime? before people troll, test it out.
Yeah, the Lunatone/Solrock would only need to be dropped later in the game. Also, in a Kyurem based ross deck, Seeker + Dragon would be the better healing option.
I am hard pressed to see how Kyurem would be a turn two Glaciate off more than 50-60% of the time, it is just too reliant on other energy accelerators.
This seems like a rather slow and clunky approach. Especially as Gatr is difficult to stream. If you want Kyurem to be more of a starter, then for sure use the BlastZel based version of the deck. Blastoise is a far superior attacker to either Gatr
I like it there, but I guess several people would disagree. :)
I think that it is. I absolutely get what you are saying and I love Electrode. I am having a blast with Electrode/Alomomola/Zekrom/Tornadus.
However, since Kyurem is not OHKOing stuff you will lose Kyurems and will need to beable to stream them. This is difficult to pull off with Electrode. You would have to set up your bench with multiple Kyurems and power them up at once for it to be extremely effective.
60% was pretty much the percentage I had in mind. So (again, assuming the deck gets big) the Ross player will either lose all of their solosis or use all of their resources to get their evolutions out. At that point their entire setup will have probably 60 damage on it without the ability to heal any of it off. I still think Ross loses this matchup 95% of the time. Maybe more. Especially without the ability to catcher out gatrs
Of course this is all major theorymon, but that’s how i see it playing out.
Anyone playing Pokemon is also a geek. Yes I’m a geek.
The Kyurem/F/B deck has 62 cards in it. Just saying.
Other than that I really liked the article.
Nah, the list has 60. I guess in editing the individual parts were miss added or just a typo in adding the totals to the different parts of the list. There are in fact only 20 Pokemon listed there.
ya i understand what ur saying. maybe a 1-1 tech would be interesting……
Just the fact that it has outrage and can be searched for with collector makes it better than SEL imo. by the way i REALLY like all of your articles. they’re always chock full of good info and crazy deck ideas. i built that Electrode/Alomomola/Zekrom/Tornadus deck because my brother needs a deck for regionals, I had all of the cards, and he refuses to play anything meta and it works like a CHARM!!! I finally have respect for the enlarged reverse pokeball.
Glad to hear! thanks for the kind words!
Great article…I really appreciate the “forward” thinking of what the format may look like and seeing how new cards work. The vileplume/Kyruem idea is very interesting – thanks for sharing.
First of all, Serperior isn’t widely played. It’s a good card, but it isn’t great. The format isn’t the best for it either, where stage 2s have to be mandatory to play to be played.
Max Potion can’t be played under trainerlock.
Blissey would wipe out all the energy on your opponent’s field unless your opponent used Reuniclus.
first off. gatrs attack does 60+ 10 for each damage counter on the defending pokemon. not 80. if kyrum hit them once before hand it would do 90. not 80.
not playing evolite with kyrum is a mistake.
playing the list with floatzel could be done but use shaymin not blastoise. adding a st2 just makes it slower with multiple floatzel.
ttar has so much potential in this format now. who plays serperior? what decks really play max potion? these options exsist but are they actually part of the meta?
yanmega, donphan and goth are the only decks you can expect to play max potion. donphan isnt very popular since tornados. goth has 30 hp basics that hate darkness howl. yanmega is different and can take advantage of the howls to your bench.
the only deck that “plays serp” is ttar varients.
so ideally ttars biggest problems are being a s2 and healing itself. as well as trainer lock. and blissy. which is only played in ross/goth,
Sorry about messing up the Feraligatr. I think it was a mental slip and I was thinking about the non-ability Gatr.
Eviolite could work in a Kyurem deck, but like I have said many times before, I am not entirely sold on Eviolite. You can simply Catcher up other stuff and take out the energy support Pokemon. Then you 2HKO the Kyurem and the Kyurm player is in a tight spot because then it will be hard to stream Kyurem. It think it will be a good addition to the format, but I’m not sold on it being game breaking to the point of inclusion in every Basic Pokemon focus deck. Then again, I could be completely wrong here :)
Obviously T-Tar is not a huge potential deck. It has not really gotten anything new form EP. So, there were options for it to be played at Nationals, Worlds, and Battle Roads. Yet, it never materialized. I think that says a lot.
I feel that you miss the point about Max Potion. The point is not that decks play it now. If that was the only thing to be considered you would be correct. You would not expect it to be played a lot and T-Tar could run wild. The point is that Max Potion is a card that a TON of decks CAN run and it really messes with T-Tar. When there is a single card (like Max Potion) or an easy to implement tech line (like Blissey) that can ruin your deck, that deck will never truly become top tier. Because, if T-Tar would get popular, people would THEN run Max Potion and T-Tar would be pushed back.
You might be able to score a surprise Top Cut with it, but once the cat’s out of the bag, decks will simply adjust.
you forgot one of Ttar’s BEST partners: yanmega.
Meh… I get what you are saying, Darkness Howl then Linear Attack for the KO. The problem is that Yanmega also takes damage is already relatively fragile in this meta.
There might be something to do there, but I honestly do not think that would be the optimal option.
ttar-yanmega it is rendered obsolete by yanmega-kyurem, but the real great partners for Ttar aren’t here yet … dark rush will bring them.
I agree with that statement. If T-Tar is going to get help, it will be from Dark Rush.
Good luck if you are going to Regionals :)
Oh I see.
I went 5-3 at 2011 Regionals in Long Beach CA with my TYRANITAR, ZOROARK, UMBREON, ZEKROM, DARKRAI/CRESSELIA LEGEND DECK.
Round 1: ZEKROM. WIN.
It was close but in the end I spreaded 120 on everyone. Max Potion is the card of the day. :)
Round 2: ZEKROM. LOSE
I was dominating all game long. In the end, I just had a tyranitar active and a lone umbreon benched. I spreaded 100 on all his tornadus’s with just one more darkness howl from winning my last prizes while he only taken 2 prizes, but then he does something so tragic. lol He catchers my umbreon and then uses seeker. so now its just umbreon and his active zekrom with 100 damage on it, he uses outrage for the win. Sad lose I shouldve won if i only had another benched pokemon. haha Good Game.
Round 3: DONPHAN/ MACHAMP. WIN.
This was the match of the day for me. I was scared at first but I kept my poise. He evolved all his machops and phanphys to Machamp and Donphan which put a smile on my face cuz i had my umbreon ready. He was unaware of Umbreons MOONLIGHT FANG which pretty much messed him up. We both took 5 prizes. He just needed one energy to knock out my tyranitar but didnt pull it, so he tried to stall with cleffa. Cleffa is asleep. My turn, Tyranitar Power Claw for game. :) Good Game.
Round 4: ZEKROM. WIN
This one came easy. Set up Tyranitar turn 2 and from here on out, total domination lol Good Game.
Round 5: GOTHETELLA. WIN
He just had a lone baby goth active with no bench. I set up tyranitar turn 2, knock it out. Good Game.
Round 6: ZEKROM. LOSE
MISPLAY of the day.. :( I spreaded 100 on 2 tornadus’s and 120 on 2 zekroms and 40 on shaymin. Just 3 prizes for me to take with his 1. I had a half legend in hand, a rainbow, and a pokemon communication. I needed the other half of the legend to win. I draw, draw a zoroar, but I right away evolve my zorua. MISTAKE!! I asked if i could take it back but he said no. I was going to communication the zoroark for the last piece of the legend to win the game. He knocked me out when I ended my turn to win.
Round 7: RESHIPHLOSION. WIN
This was a good spread game with 120 on 2 reshiram and 2 typhlosions. Came down to each player with 1 prize left. I won with umbreon.
Round 8: GOTHETELLA. LOSE
I was dominating all game. took 5 prizes, but then he knocked out my last tyranitar which is my only weapon against gothetella. He had 8 psychic on his last gothetella which no way i couldnt bring down without tyranitar. one way to win was with my legend. i had half of the legend in hand and a rainbow. I had zoroark active, used nasty plot to find other half, IT WASNT THERE. :o UNBELIEVABLE. ALL HOPE WAS GONE. He won. Turns out the other half of the legend was in my discard pile due to using Tyranitars Magaton Tail which makes me discard top 3 cards of my deck. I forgot i discarded it. . Good Game. Trainer lock really helped him.