This is the question that has people have been pondering since the dawn of time (ok, maybe only a couple years). Since the beginning of Base Set up until the release of Ruby/Sapphire, there were no restrictions placed on the player going first. He could do anything that the player going second could do.
Fast forward to the Ruby/Sapphire set. Pokémon in Japan decides that the player going first has too much of an advantage. So now that player can’t draw a card at the beginning of his first turn. Anyone can deal with that. It’s not like getting an extra random card at the beginning of the game would help that much anyway. It’s still much better to go first.
Now it’s a few weeks before the 2004 Pokémon World Championships. PUI announces that the player going first can no longer play Supporters on the first turn. That hurts. After this, people start discussing whether it’s better to go first or second. Most people agree it’s still slightly better to go first.
A few years later, with the release of the Diamond/Pearl set, Pokémon announces a new set of rules. Now the player going first can’t play any Supporters, Stadiums, OR trainers during his first turn. But in an attempt to compensate, they can once again draw a card at the beginning of their turn. Now I’d estimate to be about 50/50, half of people being pro-first and half being pro-second. Let’s take a look at the pros of both.
Pros of going first
- You can play the first energy. Every energy attachment in this game makes a huge difference, so playing the first energy can keep you a step ahead of the opponent.
- You have the first opportunity to evolve normally. When I say normally, I mean evolution not done by trainer cards like Rare Candy.
- You can attack first. This can get you setup before the opponent with 1 energy attacks like Pachirisu’s Call for Family or Call Energy.
Pros of going second
- Well, there’s really only one pro to going second, but it’s pretty major. The player going second can play Trainers, Supporters, and Stadiums on his first turn, which increases the chance he can do the dreaded FTKO for the win. Sometimes the player going first will only have 1 Pokémon in play on his first turn since he can’t play Roseanne’s Research or some other Basic Pokémon fetching card. Then on the second player’s first turn, he can play something like Machop/Rare Candy/Machamp all in one turn to KO the opponent’s only Basic Pokémon in play to win the game. This kind of cheap win has generated a lot of complaints in the Pokémon community and is known as a donk.
Do I think it’s better to go first or second? First. I consider being able to play the first energy, do the first attack, and evolving first much better than the slim chance that my opponent only has 1 Pokémon in play and I might draw the right cards to pull off a first turn donk. I wouldn’t mind if even more restrictions were placed upon the player going first.
So, what do you think? Is it better to go first or second? Let us know by commenting below!
This is a tough one… but I think I’d have to say it depends on the deck you use. In a speed oriented deck, going second is critical to getting the one-up on your opponent. Most quick decks only use 1 energy for their usual attacks anyway (Machamp, rampardos, gengar, kingdra) and SP decks ESPECIALLY like to go second in order to use all of their tools available for setup/speed. Being able to use cards like Roseannes Research to snag a quick uxie or something is a great way to abuse going second and getting cards quickly while your opponent waits until his/her second turn to look for a Claydol/Uxie, and a T1 rare candy is key for a lot of speed decks.
Slower decks, however, usually like the setup of something like pachirisu (who is also a nice SP counter) as well as the initial energy attachment. Sableye is a nice way to make sure you can go first, getting that energy attachment down, AND get to vicariously use a supporter- effectively turning your going first weakness into a somewhat advantage.
I’m thinking the benefits of going second slightly outweigh what you gain from going first, but it really can depend on the deck you run.
Given the current card pool I would definitely prefer to go second. With cards like uxie and mesprits being able to search those out makes your turn seem so much more game changing then the first turn of the game which usually consists of drop an energy attack, plus now a days decks are running lower counts of energy due to the heavy energy search cards in the format, so going first without an energy usually happens. With SP cards like energy gain and Flints you can easily catch up to your opponent on energy drops not to mention while they’re doing a one energy requirement attack you’re doing a 2 energy attack on your first turn assuming you’re playing SP. I say go second.
In the current format I’d much prefer to go second, without a doubt.
As Nardd said, it could very well depend on the deck you’re using, but I’m willing to bet that the majority of decks these days benefit from going second. Almost all of the SP decks need to be able to play an Energy Gain, Cyrus’, etc. and then there’s decks like Machamp that benefit from the Rare Candy start. Going even further, I’d say that most decks want to be able to play a Roseanne’s, or a similar basic-obtainer card ASAP.
It’s not the end of the world, as I’ve gone 1st on plenty of games and won many, but it’s definitely helpful to be able to go second.
Great article.
In the current format I’d much prefer to go second, without a doubt.
As Nardd said, it could very well depend on the deck you’re using, but I’m willing to bet that the majority of decks these days benefit from going second. Almost all of the SP decks need to be able to play an Energy Gain, Cyrus’, etc. and then there’s decks like Machamp that benefit from the Rare Candy start. Going even further, I’d say that most decks want to be able to play a Roseanne’s, or a similar basic-obtainer card ASAP.
It’s not the end of the world, as I’ve gone 1st on plenty of games and won many, but it’s definitely helpful to be able to go second.
Great article.
Excellent analysis of the situation Jeremy. I really think you hit the nail on the head with the advantages to going first. Using cards like Pachirisu, you can still get a lot done on the your first turn. I also agree that getting the first energy play and attack is still a huge advantage. I would agree the other commenters that some decks benefit from going second.
Excellent analysis of the situation Jeremy. I really think you hit the nail on the head with the advantages to going first. Using cards like Pachirisu, you can still get a lot done on the your first turn. I also agree that getting the first energy play and attack is still a huge advantage. I would agree the other commenters that some decks benefit from going second.
Really it depends on the deck. Speed decks can go first and still work. Any deck that runs basic level Xs want to go first to get the t2 level x. I see a shift towards going t1 happening soon.
I prefer going second usually. I really like being able to get a board control early so going second and being able to use rare candy, bts, sp cards, roseanne or bebe, etc is really advantageous.
I prefer going second usually. I really like being able to get a board control early so going second and being able to use rare candy, bts, sp cards, roseanne or bebe, etc is really advantageous.
I still think that donking is an issue with the game. I’m guessing POP will address this at the start of next season. My guess it’ll be whoever goes first can play supporters but not trainers. I don’t see that being too much of an issue. That or the coin flip first and second should be decidable by the winner of it.
This is a tough one… but I think I’d have to say it depends on the deck you use. In a speed oriented deck, going second is critical to getting the one-up on your opponent. Most quick decks only use 1 energy for their usual attacks anyway (Machamp, rampardos, gengar, kingdra) and SP decks ESPECIALLY like to go second in order to use all of their tools available for setup/speed. Being able to use cards like Roseannes Research to snag a quick uxie or something is a great way to abuse going second and getting cards quickly while your opponent waits until his/her second turn to look for a Claydol/Uxie, and a T1 rare candy is key for a lot of speed decks.
Slower decks, however, usually like the setup of something like pachirisu (who is also a nice SP counter) as well as the initial energy attachment. Sableye is a nice way to make sure you can go first, getting that energy attachment down, AND get to vicariously use a supporter- effectively turning your going first weakness into a somewhat advantage.
I’m thinking the benefits of going second slightly outweigh what you gain from going first, but it really can depend on the deck you run.
Given the current card pool I would definitely prefer to go second. With cards like uxie and mesprits being able to search those out makes your turn seem so much more game changing then the first turn of the game which usually consists of drop an energy attack, plus now a days decks are running lower counts of energy due to the heavy energy search cards in the format, so going first without an energy usually happens. With SP cards like energy gain and Flints you can easily catch up to your opponent on energy drops not to mention while they’re doing a one energy requirement attack you’re doing a 2 energy attack on your first turn assuming you’re playing SP. I say go second.
I agree it depends on the deck on whether you’d want to go first or second, but it depends on your hand too. If you’re going second and want to take advantage of cards like BTS, Rare Candy, Roseanne, etc then you’d at least some of those cards in your initial 8 card hand. Likewise if your opening hand has no Energy and no way to evolve Pokemon on your second turn then you’d want to go second. It’s too bad you can’t choose anymore :(
It’s true that Roseanne’s Research helps Player B, but Call Energy can do practically the same thing for Player A, though not all decks have the room for Call Energy.
I’m not sure that Player B being able to play Energy Gain first makes a huge difference. There aren’t a lot of useful 2 energy attacks on SP Pokemon besides Dialga G’s Deafen and Infernape 4’s Split Bomb.
Thanks for the comments everyone! Looks like most people are pro-second now.
If I start with a Call Energy or Pachirisu, I generally always prefer going first. In a lot of setup decks where Call and Pachirisu are a neccessity, using the first Trainers isn’t too big of a deal (right now I’m using Pachi in Blaziken, and I hate going first). Really, it depends on what deck you are running, and of course what hand you get.
Re: Donking — I dunno. It is an issue in the game, but I have a feeling (and this is totally unfounded) that the game itself is going to just slow down, rather than any rule changes being implemented. I think for the PT-On format, we’re not going to have as many overpowered trainers and draw cards, etc. Obviously we’ll have the SP engine, Bebe’s, and Rosanne’s, but I think some of the cards being shown now (Such as the new Cynthia’s) are going to come into play more in the 2010-2011 format as Claydol, Uxie, etc. are banned and SPs become less of a threat. Sorry for the ramble, those are just my thoughts, and I believe that it’d be a better way to solve the donking situation as a whole.
Re: Energy Gain — I might’ve overhyped it a bit in my first post, but I do believe it makes a pretty big difference. A lot of people were talking about the ability to attach the first energy, and EG essentially lets you do that, with the upside being you’re allowed to play other T/S, and the downside being you’re liable to be attacked first. Good point, though.
@YoYo: Is Pachi used that much? I’m not asking sarcastically, I just haven’t seen it in too many lists or around the local meta.
Great discussion going on here!
I use Pachi whenever I have room for a starter, since it also doubles as an easy to use SP counter to get rid of energy gains. It will be even more useful when the new tools come out. As far as the metagame is concerned…no I don’t see it mentioned much :P
Ah, good idea, I hadn’t thought of that, maybe I’ll have to test it out.
Re: Donking — I dunno. It is an issue in the game, but I have a feeling (and this is totally unfounded) that the game itself is going to just slow down, rather than any rule changes being implemented. I think for the PT-On format, we’re not going to have as many overpowered trainers and draw cards, etc. Obviously we’ll have the SP engine, Bebe’s, and Rosanne’s, but I think some of the cards being shown now (Such as the new Cynthia’s) are going to come into play more in the 2010-2011 format as Claydol, Uxie, etc. are banned and SPs become less of a threat. Sorry for the ramble, those are just my thoughts, and I believe that it’d be a better way to solve the donking situation as a whole.
Re: Energy Gain — I might’ve overhyped it a bit in my first post, but I do believe it makes a pretty big difference. A lot of people were talking about the ability to attach the first energy, and EG essentially lets you do that, with the upside being you’re allowed to play other T/S, and the downside being you’re liable to be attacked first. Good point, though.
@YoYo: Is Pachi used that much? I’m not asking sarcastically, I just haven’t seen it in too many lists or around the local meta.
Great discussion going on here!
I use Pachi whenever I have room for a starter, since it also doubles as an easy to use SP counter to get rid of energy gains. It will be even more useful when the new tools come out. As far as the metagame is concerned…no I don’t see it mentioned much :P
Ah, good idea, I hadn’t thought of that, maybe I’ll have to test it out.
Really it depends on the deck. Speed decks can go first and still work. Any deck that runs basic level Xs want to go first to get the t2 level x. I see a shift towards going t1 happening soon.
I still think that donking is an issue with the game. I’m guessing POP will address this at the start of next season. My guess it’ll be whoever goes first can play supporters but not trainers. I don’t see that being too much of an issue. That or the coin flip first and second should be decidable by the winner of it.
I agree it depends on the deck on whether you’d want to go first or second, but it depends on your hand too. If you’re going second and want to take advantage of cards like BTS, Rare Candy, Roseanne, etc then you’d at least some of those cards in your initial 8 card hand. Likewise if your opening hand has no Energy and no way to evolve Pokemon on your second turn then you’d want to go second. It’s too bad you can’t choose anymore :(
It’s true that Roseanne’s Research helps Player B, but Call Energy can do practically the same thing for Player A, though not all decks have the room for Call Energy.
I’m not sure that Player B being able to play Energy Gain first makes a huge difference. There aren’t a lot of useful 2 energy attacks on SP Pokemon besides Dialga G’s Deafen and Infernape 4’s Split Bomb.
Thanks for the comments everyone! Looks like most people are pro-second now.
If I start with a Call Energy or Pachirisu, I generally always prefer going first. In a lot of setup decks where Call and Pachirisu are a neccessity, using the first Trainers isn’t too big of a deal (right now I’m using Pachi in Blaziken, and I hate going first). Really, it depends on what deck you are running, and of course what hand you get.
Pach is a good idea more times than not. It is sort of like a “fifth Call Energy,” which is never bad. It is also useful against SP Pokemon, and a quick 40 damage on most water-weak Pokemon.
Or a near OHKO on Palkia G :D
Pach is a good idea more times than not. It is sort of like a “fifth Call Energy,” which is never bad. It is also useful against SP Pokemon, and a quick 40 damage on most water-weak Pokemon.
Or a near OHKO on Palkia G :D
I prefer going first most of the time. The first Energy attachment in a game can make or break your match.
I prefer going first most of the time. The first Energy attachment in a game can make or break your match.
Awesome analysis everyone. And welcome to the site nardd! :)
I definitely prefer to go second because I love getting turn 1 wins. I know they’re lame, but in a tournament I’ll take them any day of the week (well only Saturdays and Sundays).
Awesome analysis everyone. And welcome to the site nardd! :)
I definitely prefer to go second because I love getting turn 1 wins. I know they’re lame, but in a tournament I’ll take them any day of the week (well only Saturdays and Sundays).
Definitely depends on the deck, as well as the matchup you go up against.
VS Machamp, obviously going second can be crucial. Champ players have this uncanny ability to get first turn Machamp, EVEN if they can’t do anything else.
Gengar is an odd deck because there are huge advantages to going first “or” second. By going first, you can Pitch-Dark, whereas if you go second, then you have a step up on the Shadow Rooming game (assuming they didn’t G anything first turn).
My man Kettler has some good analysis here…
I have a video coming out later this week, and in it I mention some important stuff regarding playtesting, and one of them is to keep track of who goes first or second. Gengar is a prime example of a deck where you should monitor this because it has advantages to going first or second, so if you monitor what games you went 1st or 2nd and the outcomes of those games (win or loss), you will be able to know what really is the preferred scenario for the deck, to go first or second.
Yeah, Pitch Dark is pretty good T1 if you go first… but if you go second, they can’t play trainers anyways.
Definitely depends on the deck, as well as the matchup you go up against.
VS Machamp, obviously going second can be crucial. Champ players have this uncanny ability to get first turn Machamp, EVEN if they can’t do anything else.
Gengar is an odd deck because there are huge advantages to going first “or” second. By going first, you can Pitch-Dark, whereas if you go second, then you have a step up on the Shadow Rooming game (assuming they didn’t G anything first turn).
My man Kettler has some good analysis here…
I have a video coming out later this week, and in it I mention some important stuff regarding playtesting, and one of them is to keep track of who goes first or second. Gengar is a prime example of a deck where you should monitor this because it has advantages to going first or second, so if you monitor what games you went 1st or 2nd and the outcomes of those games (win or loss), you will be able to know what really is the preferred scenario for the deck, to go first or second.
Yeah, Pitch Dark is pretty good T1 if you go first… but if you go second, they can’t play trainers anyways.
I thought set up Pokemon were all dead? I’d rather run call over any kind of set up Pokez.
I use Honchkrow G to get my Stadiums early so I can use Skunktank G’s Poison Structure. Then, assuming I can get him back to the bench, he is a good sniper for mid to late game. He only has 1 retreat cost. If he had 0 retreat cost he would be amazing.
I thought set up Pokemon were all dead? I’d rather run call over any kind of set up Pokez.
I use Honchkrow G to get my Stadiums early so I can use Skunktank G’s Poison Structure. Then, assuming I can get him back to the bench, he is a good sniper for mid to late game. He only has 1 retreat cost. If he had 0 retreat cost he would be amazing.
First or Second, the age old Pokemon question[or at least the question since they made it no trainers if you go first].
With decks such as Machamp, Shuppet Rush, Kingdra, Beedrill and Dialga G, thriving on going 2nd, you certainly want to lose the coin flip now.
However, some decks like going first. I know in decks with an actual starting pokemon[such as the mentioned Pachirisu GE, or Absol SW] you would love to make the first move. Some SP decks that use Weavile G and Honchkrow G as main attackers/set up Pokemon, enjoy going first.
Finally, there are a few decks such as Luxape and Palkia Lock that really don’t have a preference in my opinion. Luxape will most likely have it’s lv. x out Turn 2 regardless of when their first turn is, and Palkia has Mesprit LA to help it out if it happens to go first.
In conclusion, I would like to go 3rd. :)
First or Second, the age old Pokemon question[or at least the question since they made it no trainers if you go first].
With decks such as Machamp, Shuppet Rush, Kingdra, Beedrill and Dialga G, thriving on going 2nd, you certainly want to lose the coin flip now.
However, some decks like going first. I know in decks with an actual starting pokemon[such as the mentioned Pachirisu GE, or Absol SW] you would love to make the first move. Some SP decks that use Weavile G and Honchkrow G as main attackers/set up Pokemon, enjoy going first.
Finally, there are a few decks such as Luxape and Palkia Lock that really don’t have a preference in my opinion. Luxape will most likely have it’s lv. x out Turn 2 regardless of when their first turn is, and Palkia has Mesprit LA to help it out if it happens to go first.
In conclusion, I would like to go 3rd. :)
In my experience with SP decks, mainly Dialga G tank, Raype, and DPL – Going first is more beneficial than going second. Going second opens up the possibility for a turn 1 deafen for tank dialga, but that won’t happen every game. Getting to lay the first call and getting yourself more set up than your opponent is definitely worth not being able to play trainers, most of the time.
In my experience with SP decks, mainly Dialga G tank, Raype, and DPL – Going first is more beneficial than going second. Going second opens up the possibility for a turn 1 deafen for tank dialga, but that won’t happen every game. Getting to lay the first call and getting yourself more set up than your opponent is definitely worth not being able to play trainers, most of the time.
i like to be the first to play because several reasons like make a good strategy by the begining hand…and other reasons…and several times it dificults the thing’s but nothing that we can’t resolve…
i like to be the first to play because several reasons like make a good strategy by the begining hand…and other reasons…and several times it dificults the thing’s but nothing that we can’t resolve…
Josh, Stigma, and Vitor, thanks for posting and welcome to the site. :)
Josh, Stigma, and Vitor, thanks for posting and welcome to the site. :)
thankx…
thankx…
It is better going first
It is better going first
Well, I think that clears up a couple of difficulties for me personally. How about anybody else?
Thanks a ton for posting this, I discovered it extremely informative, and it answered most in the concerns I had.
they changed the rules again with blck/white. The trainer/support/stadium bla bla restrictions are gone