In this video, I explain how much damage a Sableye-based donk deck can do if we get the Black and White rules and no change to the format. I hope I never have to play in a format where this deck exists!
So Pokémon Changed The Rules…
news
- Apr 13, 2011
the deck is too broken. i tested my own build and won against my luxchomp over 60% of time. really i find spiritomb or run insane basic counts and higher hp basics.
I have been wondering about this because the Black and White pokemon have really high HP but I don’t know if that is enough. Nice to see this in action though (and kind of sad to see this possible too. ^^*)
I’m by no means a vet of the Pokémon TCG. In fact, I’m only playing for my second season as far as organized play goes. However, I’m the type to do my research, and as such, I’ve looked over every single modified format since the base set days. I have to say, from my research, that this appears to be an all time new low point for the game. I do seriously hope that the “rumors” of an announcement coming soon are not just created out of smoke and echoes.
As most people much wiser than I have said, we have three “solutions” to the problem. We can either do nothing (allowing the donk-fests to begin), delay the Black and White rules until after worlds, or we can have a mid-season rotation. Really, none of these solutions are ideal, from the perspective of P!P, and more than one is ideal for the “serious” players. For the record, I know people are suggesting a ban list, but it’s not going to happen, IMHO.
From TPCI (P!P)’s perspective:
~Do nothing
~The players get angry at us, some quit the game
~Delay the rules
~Major slap in the face, as we already printed the new rules sheets in every single theme deck on the shelves, and it’ll confuse newer players
~Mid Season Rotation
~Loss of sales for the packs that are now rotated, backlash from game stores, backlash from players complaining their 200 buck cards are now worthless.
~Confuses players
From the “Vet” player’s perspective:
~Do nothing
~BRS/NATS/WORLDS become donkfests, unfun, boring, lame
~Shows how little TPCI/P!P care about actual players
~Delay the rules
~The format stays mostly the same as it is now, with a splash of new decks using the higher HP B/W Pokémon, and a few abilities.
~We get a new draw engine/deck idea using Fortress LA/Shuckle promo/Embaor/etc
~Mid Season Rotation
~SP becomes either dominant, or entirely unplayable, depending on the cut
~We lose Uxie, Sableye, etc
~Stage one decks get stronger, assuming we keep AR
From the Newer Player’s perspective:
~Do nothing
~I show up to battle roads to learn the game and I never et to draw a card all day
~Shows how little TPCI/P!P care about actual players
~Delay the rules
~The format stays mostly the same as it is now, with a splash of new decks using the higher HP B/W Pokémon, and a few abilities.
~Why did the rulebook I got from my new starter deck lie to me?
~Mid Season Rotation
~These great cards I was told would kick butt won’t work any more? Why?
So really, there’s no one “good” choice. It’s all about causing the least evil. To me, a mid-season cut to RR-on is that needed evil.
TL;DR: Mid-season rotation to RR is the best bet
They could just ban Sableye. That would be the prefered choice, at least for me.
Someone should send this to Pokemon Company International. Sabledonk is TOO FREAKIN’ POWERFUL!!!!!
According to the forums, people here have, and were met with hostility. No, i think TPCI is well aware of what a mess they’re in, and they’re lashing out at people who try to push it at them. The best thing we can do, as players, is simply state our case, and hope. The employees of TPCI very rarely, but they do sometimes, read both the gym and on 6p.
thanks for the info. i’ll keep that in mind. :)
Great video, I really enjoyed watching this one.
You mentioned that your opponent will only start with Spiritomb X percent each game if they play 4, but you’ve also got to factor in topdecking one, having a Collector, Bebe’s Search, or Communication to get one and an energy/Unown Q to retreat their active.
I know this only matters when you don’t start Sableye and go 2nd, but I think factoring that in would make having 4 Spiritomb give you a much better shot.
But either way… Sabledonk is ridiculous! :(
I actually did put this as a factor, because I assume that if they go first, they win. That goes into their half of the 32% that I talk about at the end. I actually just assume that ANY deck can beat you if they’re given the chance to go first, because they probably can.
Nice analysis!
I know that you’re going for raw speed here, but if someone is concerned about Spirtomb, there are ways to tweak the deck. Running a single Collector and Regice can help out. At least that allows you to make use of Sableye’s free attack when you go first.
Add in a basic Dark and a Cyrus, and it can help the matchup a bit. On turn 1, you can Impersonate Cyrus for Turn, Dark, Collector. They will usually Darkness Grace on their first turn, so that puts you able to KO their Spiritomb with the help of Collector (getting at least one Crobat). The problem is that you’re now a turn behind while playing a deck that’s intended to win turn-1. They already have a Stage 1 in play, so that hurts your chances of going off.
Is this better than just Impersonating Collector for Regice/Crobat/Uxie or UnownDark/Crobat/Uxie? I don’t know. It depends on their first turn and whether they get a second Tomb out.
To give yourself a lot of outs, you hurt your other matchups. It’s all a tradeoff. Maybe my whole comment is pointless.
If you impersonate for a regice then they will just grab double tomb the next turn rendering that useless. If you want to avoid the bad spiritomb match then the best thing is to add 4 collector, 1 regice to maximize getting in on turn 1 as to avoid having to use impersonate (too slow for donk deck).
Problem with this is like what Jwittz said. It ruins consistency against the other decks. Either way this deck is disgustingly good with these rules.
4 Collector in a deck like this makes me cringe. It’s the type of deck you just run and live ‘n’ die by the flips.
If it’s really that good, others will play it. Then it comes down to a 50/50. It’d be kinda entertaining to see that format, though (for about 1 or 2 rounds).
tl;dw
I enjoyed this greatly. Awesome video. I’m not sure i’d wanna run Sabledonk though. Here’s why:
Now, let’s assume that you DO win 70% of games against non-Spiritomb running decks and 42% against spiritomb-running decks.
If you have 7 Swiss rounds and do not meet (or lose to) any spiritomb decks, you’ll win 70% of your games, go 5-2 and make the cut. This is assuming your deck doesn’t stall, none of your opponents start with more than 3 x 80hp pokemon and you don’t lose to any spiritomb or any other Sableye starting decks. If these things happen then you go 4-3 and miss cut.
If you do then make the cut you’ve got to go all way through top cut (let’s say a top-16, based on 7 swiss rounds) without meeting any spirtiomb decks or decks that run many high HP basics.
So, a good deck that will get many wins, i really don’t see it winning tournaments though. A few very well made ones (like yourself – i really did admire the make-up of that deck!) will make cut but an, at best, 70% win percentage will not win tournaments and therefore the top players will not run it. So we have less-good players playing the deck, so that win percentage goes down.
And THAT is why i will not be playing Sabledonk. I’m not stupid though, my new deck has 18 basics (many of which have high HP) and 4 Sableye.
power spray isn’t that much of a risk. Once they have their three SP basics down they only have four cards left that might be a spray. I doubt that you will be sprayed more than one in three of the games when they do have three SP pokemon down. So with the new B&W rules your T1 Set-Up(Uxie) is going to be safe most of the time.
If you are the only player running a 70% deck in a tournament then you may not make the cut. But when lots of players run the 70% deck then it will make the cut and will win tournaments. Luxray-Garchomp isn’t better than a 70% deck right now and it wins.
Awesome video!
You mention that your chances of starting Sableye as 40%, but actually they’re even better than that; you’ve got ~45% chance of having Sableye in your opening hand, but you’ve also got ~10% chance of a mulligan, which gives you yet another chance to get Sableye in your opening hand. Pokepedia’s calculator puts you at ~50% of having at least one Sableye in your opening non-mulligan hand.
So it’s even more broken than one might first imagine! (Though, that means your opponent might also have a greater chance of starting with Spiritomb. Hmmrrr.)
Ive been testing the deck also and found almost the same results.. The only thing you didn’t take into account is that there will be the new 130 hp zekrom and reshiram but even then they have a 40 percent chance of start with them and if they don’t choose to start with it active it could be seekered or you cold play double blower to switch it to the bench then seeker if it starts active.. so it’s not much of a concerned… Also the chances of someone starting more than 3 basics with 80 hp is slim to none with a 60 card deck drawing 7 to start they would need to have 3.. Which means if you had 30 of your 60 cards basic pokemon which is a ridiculous amount you would still only start with 3 basics 85% of the time
awesome sleeves
I am actually quite digging custom play mat.
Just.. Wow..
I died a little inside watching this..
Whats luxchomp’s statistics? if its less than 70% win rate yet still wins most major tournaments due to the sheer amount of them played, than sabledonk can effectively do the same thing but better in 1 turn giving more time for food breaks… no deck wins 100% so your taking a risk no matter what you play, shuppet/uxie-donks win by coin flip but this can negate the luck factor assuming they don’t have sableye as well, if they do then its 50/50… spiritomb is the only true problem which at 4 still only gives them the same percentage of starting with 1 as you do with sableye so 50/50, theres no current tier 1 deck that runs 4 sableye, 4 spiritomb and lots of high hp basics so your not likely to get countered so easily… a deck that wins by coin flip or just straight up if they have no counter to you is beyond ridiculous, but on the up side if everyone runs this than tournaments will be much faster allowing time for best of 3 matches, no matter what happens to the format get as many sableyes as possible now just to put in any deck that doesn’t have tombs or you will just auto-loss more than half the time… everyone is complaining this will break the format but it will just create a new format onto itself where all games end in 1 turn or scoop… very bad for new players but for veterans its just a change from SP-domination for a few months until rotation which doesn’t hurt that badly…. just don’t ever run this as a fun deck at leagues!!!!!
also this is cheaper than all tier 1 decks seeing as how it can easily abuse those balls (quick, dusk, dual etc) that are just sitting in boxes doing nothing, uxie’s/sableyes/and bat G+turns are the only real pricey cards in here and you can get all for the relative price of 1 luxray GL lv.x … a newbie can spend a fraction of the cost of competitive decks and beat them more often than they lose to them
How about instead of begging the pokemon company to do something ourselves… DONT PLAY THE DECK!
Simple as that. If anyone tries to claim that someone who wins a tourney with Sabledonk is a “good” player I will not take them seriously. People should earn their wins… Donking doesn’t earn you anything.
tyty
This deck has been played for the first time by an Italian player, Emanuele P. aka Rambo, at the City Championship of Naples (Italy) on January.
He went second losing final against Steelix (with 4 Stantler, 4 Onix, 4 Call Energy) and after 5-0 in swiss.
i might run more power sprays in my deck so you can just spray uxies
I know that there is a lot of stress about this “mid-season” format change. And yes, Sable-donk will be a formidable force to be reckoned with. However, there are ways to play around this and the really good players will find it or take advantage of it. There are more basic pokemon coming with higher HP levels as one example of a counter. Keep in mind that Pokemon Catcher will NOT be in this next release which would totally break the format if it were paired with Sableye.
I can’t help but think that there will be combinations out there that will be able to withstand the first turn rush and then take games on endurance and large counter-attacks.
Everyone has been complaining about how stale the format is with SP-domination. This is an ackward step forwardm, but it is a step forward. After rotation, the game should slow down and make methodical play more the rule than all of the speed that we currently have. It will require more consideration, planning and skill on the player’s part. And, that can only be good for the game. There was NO WAY that TCPi could make this change and satisfy everyone, so we will have to make it through 4 months until things adjust and even out.
Adjustment happens at every level of life. Yes, things will not be overly pleasant during the change ; – p, however I believe the game will come out the other side stronger for it.
They should call this deck ‘Solitaire’. You are only ever going to play 1 turn or lose on the 2nd turn.
That’s the original name Rob Downs gave to Uxie Donk–it’s pretty fitting.
This was a terrific video and excellent analysis.
I don’t see how this is significantly better than Uxie Donk in the current format. With the new Plus Power rules going forward, neither deck has anything beyond T1, and Uxie Donk can already do 200 damage T1.
Uxie Donk must go second (current format), but loses maybe 70% of the time it goes first. So its 50% going second and winning 90+% of the time and 30-40% going first and winning which = 65-70%. Roughly same percentages, yet though Uxie Donk has top cutted in a number of event, but hasn’t won too many as I recall. I do not think it is the right deck choice for Nats, but its presence will change the event as some people will get T1d that otherwise might have gone on. I think its hardly as broken as its made out to be.
I don’t see how this is significantly better than Uxie Donk in the current format. With the new Plus Power rules going forward, neither deck has anything beyond T1, and Uxie Donk can already do 200 damage T1.
Uxie Donk must go second (current format), but loses maybe 70% of the time it goes first. So its 50% going second and winning 90+% of the time and 30-40% going first and winning which = 65-70%. Roughly same percentages, yet though Uxie Donk has top cutted in a number of event, but hasn’t won too many as I recall. I do not think it is the right deck choice for Nats, but its presence will change the event as some people will get T1d that otherwise might have gone on. I think its hardly as broken as its made out to be.
Sabledonk is better than Uxie Donk because Sableye FORCES you to go first, no matter what (unless your opponent starts w/ Sableye, too). With Uxie Donk, you need to go through the coin flip, which means there’s only a 50/50 chance of winning. With Sableye, you go first no matter what, and you don’t have to hope that the coin flip is in your favor.
They listened J!
Thanks Josh, entertaining as always. Keep it up.
I just thought of another reason to like Pokemon: vigilant players who love the game speak their mind in an organized and coherent manner. There’s no way I would be into this if it weren’t for this web site. So, props to Adam and every one of you who contribute and make this fun to read.
This guy’s life and career revolve around this game. I’m disappointed by his unwillingness to take the extra five minutes to switch cards out of his other decks in order to avoid any confusion amongst his fans.
It’s not his life or career. It’s his hobby. He’s a full-time college student. That is his life and career. It seems as though you are the only person who had any kind of problem with it.
Well, uh, thanks for the correction. I just thought it was lazy of him, and I expected more from someone who’s as immersed in this TCG as much as he is. Also, since I learned of him through little kids, I thought it was kind of inconsiderate to do a demonstration with proxies and thereby create potential for confusion amongst a fan base that might not understand what’s actually going on.
cool story bro.
People still say that? lol