The Hawk’s Nest: Battle Roads Wrap Up

pokebeach.comHello 6P Nation! The Battle Roads season has come to an end, next stop Fall Regionals. I only made it to one BR due to many different reasons, but as I promised in my report I would be back with a BR overview. I will start off with the numbers of the season, point out some tier break downs, then move onto the match up statistics of the top tier against each other, and then cover the general (non-deck results) state of the game. So, let’s get right to it.

The first place to look for BR results is the What Won Thread over on the PokéGym. As other people have pointed out, I am not completely pleased with how the results were tallied. So, I went ahead and went through every post on that thread and tallied the results myself. Now, if you do the same, you might get different totals (although they should be close) because we do not have uniformity in reporting standards and compiling standards. However, these numbers should be fairly representative.

What wanted was to not only look at the winning decks, I wanted to look at all the decks that made it to the top cut. I feel that this is a more representative way of determining the deck viability. So, below is a table that shows how many times each deck made the cut and how many 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th places each deck took. Soak it in…

First Second Third Fourth Total
TyRam

42

37

32

27

138

ZPS(T)

31

29

30

24

114

PrimeTime

18

28

16

15

77

Gothitelle

15

5

8

13

41

MagneBoar

6

6

6

8

26

Stage 1s

6

10

9

10

35

Ross

5

3

4

2

14

Zekrom

5

4

1

3

13

ReshiBoar

4

4

9

7

24

D&D

4

2

1

2

9

HorseMega

4

1

0

2

7

MewPlume

3

3

3

6

15

Cinccino

3

5

3

2

13

YanPhan

2

4

4

3

13

YanmegaVar

2

1

3

1

7

YanPlume

2

0

0

2

4

LYZ

2

4

0

1

7

Magnezone

2

0

0

1

3

HorseCin

2

1

2

0

5

Ttar

1

0

1

1

3

MewMega

1

0

0

0

1

SamPhan

1

0

0

0

1

Blastzel

1

3

0

0

4

hotpocket

1

0

0

0

1

Gigalith

1

0

0

0

1

rossphlosion

1

0

1

0

2

Mew Box

0

5

2

3

10

LostGar

0

1

6

3

10

DonChamp

0

1

2

0

3

WailGatr

0

1

0

0

1

SamMega

0

0

0

1

1

PhanHorse

0

0

3

1

4

Beartic

0

3

2

7

12

Scolipede

0

0

0

1

1

Random

0

1

1

0

2

Donphan

0

0

0

2

2

Krookodile

0

0

1

1

2

Scizor/kk

0

0

1

0

1

Ambilock

0

1

0

0

1

Tangrowth

0

0

0

1

1

Depending on how you total the results, there are up to 39 different decks that made the cut at least once. That is an absurd number of decks. I personally believe that this is a testament of how diverse and healthy the format is right now. I believe that both of those things are positives for the following reasons:

1. Diversity helps to keep the cost of the game down. By having many cards perform well, the supply side of the economic curve is retrained. This keeps any one card from dominating the market. For example, Yanmega is the most expensive playable card, yet it is only going for $40ish. Compare this to Luxray GL LV.X ($60) and Uxie LV.X ($60) of the last format.

2. Diversity also keeps the game fresh. This ensures that over the course of any given tournament there will be fun games to play against different decks.

Tiers

Now, let’s break this rig down into some type of loose tier system. Granted, everyone will argue with me on this breakdown. People will claim, “In my testing deck X handles deck Y” and thus not agree. But, these tiers are based on combined 1st and 2nd place finished by each deck. This compilation can be found below:

  1. TyRam – 79 combined 1st and 2nd place finishes
  2. ZPS(T) – 60
  3. Yanmega/Magnezone aka PrimeTime – 46
  4. Gothitelle – 20
  5. Stage 1s – 16
  6. MagneBoar – 12
  7. Zekrom – 9
  8. Ross – 8
  9. ReshiBoar – 8
  10. Cinccino – 8
  11. Donphan & Dragons – 6
  12. MewPlume – 6
  13. Yanmega/Donphan – 6
  14. Lanturn/Yanmega/Zekrom – 6
  15. Yanmega/Kingdra – 5
  16. Mew Box – 5
  17. Blastoise/Floatzel – 4
  18. Yanmega Variants – 3
  19. Cinccino/Kingdra – 3
  20. Beartic – 3
  21. Yanmega/Vileplume – 2
  22. Magnezone – 2
  23. Tyranitar Prime – 1
  24. Mew/Yanmega – 1
  25. Samurott/Donphan – 1
  26. Hotpocket – 1
  27. Gigalith EP – 1
  28. Rossphlosion – 1
  29. LostGar – 1
  30. Donphan Prime/Machamp Prime – 1
  31. Wailord TM/Feraligatr Prime – 1
  32. Random – 1
  33. Ambipom TM Lock – 1

Now we are starting to get a clearer picture of how things are shaking out.

Top Tier

pokebeach.comThe High Top Tier clearly is the property of two decks: tyRam and ZPS(T). These two decks clearly outmatch the rest of the field with a combined 139 appearances in the Top 2. Separately, each of these decks have at least 60 appearances in the Top 2.

The Mid Top Tier is home to three decks: PrimeTime, Gothitelle, and Stage 1s. Each of these decks have 20 appearances in the Top 2.

(For purposes here, I combined YanPhan, Stage 1s, Cinccino, and Yanmega variants into the one group.)

The deck that is on the fringe of the Top Tier is MagneBoar with 12 Top 2 appearances.

Mid Tier

I would say that decks with more than one top 2 appearance are the Mid Tier decks that are viable, but not dominate. You can see the chart for these results.

Low Tier

Everything else is in the Low Tier. These are decks that likely are not competitive enough to take you consistently deep into tournaments.

Top Tier Interactions

pokebeach.comHere is what I did: To get some numbers for actual match ups between the top tier decks, I looked at each and every reported result on the ‘Gym’s thread. I kept a tally of what two decks were in the Top 2 and which deck won. This have given me at least a very small sample of how decks perform against each other (or at least how they performed against each other in the Finals.

This should be fairly informative because, in theory, the Top 2 is a game between skilled players, and should give a decent indication of how the match should play out on average. For each Top Tier match up I will tell you how many times the two decks met and provide a graph showing the breakdown of victories.

(I do admit even though there have been a lot of Battle Roads, there has not been a lot of individual samples for each of these match ups. So, due to small sample sizes, take what you wish from these numbers. Please (all you statistics people) don’t get on the comments and rail about how this is meaningless because of the sample size. Something is better than nothing.

However, I would recommend that you at least consider them because after all, these were actual competitive matches played out in real tournaments under real time limits. We do not get that kind of data very often. These are not just some random percentages based on individual testing.)

tyRam v. ZPST

The two most dominate decks have faced off more all lot compared to most other Top Tier decks. This should not be surprising. What is surprising is how skewed the results have been. These two decks have met 14 times in the Top 2, and tyRam has won an astounding 10 of these games. I would wager to say that most people would have perceived that this would be close to the opposite.

However, tyRam really is more consistent and can really press on longer into games than ZPST. Also, ZPST is extremely energy dependant, and tyRam can clear the board of energy while keeping their own stream flowing. ZPST players should likely run a little bit more energy and either a higher count of pick up trainers (Seeker/SSU) or a thicker Shaymin/Pachirisu line to get energy on the field.

tyRam v. Goth

There were three match ups between these two decks from the reported results. As most people would have imagined, Goth won two and tyRam won one. Goth really puts the lock down on tyRam once set up. There are a few things that tyRam can do to help with this match up, but there is not really anything to pull the match up to even. tyRam can add Darkrai & Cressilia Legend, Jirachi UL, Rotom UD, or a dragger (Bellsprout TM) to try and counter the lock.

tyRam v. PrimeTime

This is one of the hottest debates out there right now. So people are saying that tyRam is actually an inferior deck to many things, including PrimeTime. Many people also claim that PrimeTime is the BDIF for skilled players. Well, these two decks met a respectable ten times in the finals. tyRam came out on top seven of those time. PrimeTime is an excellent deck, and an early Judge can mess with tyRam, but having to Lost Zone three energies to 1HKO the important parts of tyRam is a tall feat.

I personally, do not believe that the actual matchup is this far in tyRam favor, but I will stand by the assertion that tyRam holds the edge here. Note: Reported Kingdra versions of PrimeTime roughly split the matchups.

tyRam v. MagneBoar

tyRam and MagneBoar have only met once in the finals. This is an extremely small sample and tyRam won that game. This is, in my opinion, to be expected. tyRam set up fast, hits hard enough, and had a more reliable energy stream. Toss in the ability to Catcher up Emboar at will and tyRam hold the upper hand in this match up.

tyRam v. Stage 1s

In all honesty, this result surprised me. The various versions of Stage 1s (combinations of Yanmega, Donhpan, Cinccino, Weavile, Beartic w/o Vileplume, Lanturn, Zoroark) have fared very well against the most successful deck. I guess the idea is that with Cinccino/Yanmega/Donphan you can rush tyRam, and with Zoroark you can score 1HKOs on Reshiram.

My personal results have been extremely different than this, but hey, results are results. If you are a tyRam player, the key here is just consistency.

ZPST v. Goth

Well unsurprisingly, ZPST struggles with Goth. ZPST has even fewer options against Gothitelle than tyRam does. So, unless you can power through the early game and rid the board of the Solosis, ZPST is going to struggle. ZPST could toss in Rotom to try and score a 1HKO on that Goth with 6 energies on it. Other than that you just really have to hope to out speed it or flood the board with damage. Gothitelle really has the upper hand here.

ZPST v. PrimeTime

Well we found the matchup that ZPST feasts on. These two decks have faced off more than any other pair of decks and ZPST has firmly held the upper hand. ZPST had won 13 of the 18 Top 2 meetings between these decks. This is really just a cause of one deck out speeding the other and holding a partial type advantage. There is not a ton that PrimeTime can to do help itself out here.

PrimeTime needs to be ultra-consistent (no Kingdra) to help here, but then it gives up some help against tyRam. PrimeTime could also run something like Revenge Bouffalant or Zoroark with DCE to help in the prize exchange. Again, the energy requirements for this matchup is also difficult and more energy can help.

ZPST v. MagenBoar

This is the matchup of the two hype machines. Going into the first Nationals with a HGSS-on format, MagneBoarwas the hyped BDIF. Now going into Battle Roads, ZPST was the hyped BDIF. This match up comes down to a contrast of styles. ZPST is trying to run MagneBoar off the field and MagneBoar is trying to set up. Once set up ZPST really struggles with MagneBoar and can really only rely on taking out Emboar. This is a small sample size, so, I would say the matchup is closer to 50/50.

ZPST v. Stage 1s

Again, this is a limited sample size, but the results turn out pretty much exactly how I would have imagined them. In my mind, Stage 1s is a lesser form of ZPST (unless you are play Beartic in Stage 1s). Both decks go for turn two pressure and really try to pick off cheap prizes. However, ZPST hits harder and slightly faster. The key here for Stage 1s is to take the first prize and then keep up in the trade. To accomplish this, you could run Zoroark, Double Colorless Energy, and Bouffalant.

Goth v. PrimeTime

Interestingly enough, there has not been a reported final between Gothitelle and PrimeTime. So, we do not have any data to go off of. In my opinion, PrimeTIme has the advantage because it is faster and can secure 1HKOs on Gothitelle to finish the game.

Goth v. MagneBoar

MagneBoar and Gothitelld have matched up only once, with Gothitelle winning. This match up really comes down to who can set up first. If Gothitelle can hit the lock, MagneBoar will likely struggle to get back into the game. If MagneBoar can get an Emboar and Magnezone up first, it will win. The game is pretty much that simple here.

Goth v. Stage 1s

Gothitelle and Stage 1s have played five time in the Top 2 with Goth taking 4 wins. The key for Stage 1s is to take out the Solosis before they can get setup. If not Gothitelle wins going away. If you run Beartic in Stage 1s you have a little bit better shot at coming away victorious.

PrimeTime v. MagneBoar

PrimeTime and MagneBoar have also only played once at the final table with PrimeTime winning. This is honestly to be expected. Both have Magnezone to clean up the game late, but Yanmega can take the easy prizes early and set up crucial two energy Lost Burn kills. If you all remember the commotion after US Nats, you should not be surprised that PrimeTime is favored in this matchup.

PrimeTime v. Stage 1s

This is the US National Finals matchup. If you all recall, that match went down to the wire with the two decks evenly matched. Justin Sanchez and Pooka played the match to the wire and a coin flip decided the champion. Well it would seem that these two decks have carried on their even-ness into the new season. Both can take easy prizes with Yanmega early. Donphan can wreck Magnezone, but Magnezone can 1HKO anything on the board. Contrary to popular belief, Catcher did not skew this matchup into a near auto-win for Stage 1s.

MagneBoar v. Stage1s

pokebeach.comThe final combination of the Top Tier decks is MagneBoar v. Stage 1s. Unfortunately, we do not have any reported finals between these two decks. In theory, Stage 1s gained enough from Catcher to push the advantage its way, but that is all theory.

There are the numbers for the matchups between the various top decks from Battle Roads. I hope that it helps you get a sense of how the meta is shaking out.

(Please, if you have more results that would change this layout, make sure to put them in the comments. By this I mean, if you have seen or been a part of, for an example, a MagneBoar v. Stage 1s matchup, talk about it. Etc. Also, please remember that these come from the ‘Gym’s thread.

Also, I know that these are just the numbers behind the decks with not a lot of in-depth deck-based advice or information, I will do an article pre-Regionals to help you all with understanding how each deck plays and how to approach other decks.)

Game Overview

Well the first portion of the season has come and gone and the first Championship Points have been awarded. How is the game faring?

1. The game seems to be relatively strong right now. Because of the new importance to Battle Roads, attendance was up (in general) and very good players were showing up in force.

2. It would seem that the outrage over the Championship Points favoring people with many local tournaments was a little overblown. Yes, some great players have wrapped up a solid number of points, but many, many players have only recorded 2-5 points. That is not an insurmountable number for players who can only go to the larger events (for whatever reasons). Here in the STL we have had a different winner each and every tournament. That is great.

3. People seem to be willing to travel more for Battle Roads. This is a good and bad thing. It is good because it shows dedication; it is bad because it make the game even more expensive to be competitive.

4. I still feel that the points are imbalanced, but it is not as bad as most people likely thought.

5. The Battle Roads tournament structure needs to be changed. Having Top Cut limited to four max, is not acceptable any more. The Top Cut needs to be determined from attendance only. It is not even close to fair for 4-5 players to go X-1 and 2-4 of the players to walk away with nothing from the tournament. All of the players that go X-1 should be allowed to duke it out for the points.

Well, that is all I got for you. I hope you enjoyed it!

Reader Interactions

60 replies

    • Anonymous  → beyblade1410

      We’ll see. It definitely had it’s day in the BR season, but there a lot of good hate decks that could dethrone it come Regionals.

      • Jared  → Anonymous

        The problem (as I see it) with building an assumed water based deck, is going to be facing off against zekrom as well, which won’t take a person  anywhere near deep into regionals.

        • Anonymous  → Jared

          I would tend to agree. Personally, I think tyRam is in it for the long haul this season. However, I was just admitting that there are things that can mess with the deck. So, we will just have to see.

        • Jared  → Anonymous

          I agree too that there are decks that can mess with it (I’ve played them), but these disruption decks mess with any deck that has half a set up, (basically it is going to be hard to create a specific Tyram hate deck); but I do think it is going to be a more unique disruption or spin off of a popular deck that really wins regionals.
          Anyways, this is an amazing article and thanks for all of this data (esp. for it not being underground). It is good to see that decks such as tyram are winning not only due to the numbers of people playing them, but actual matchup wise by skilled players.

  1. Dave Wilson

    Wow, great job doing the break down, including matchups and all placements from 1st to 4th. Some of the sample sizes are too small to really be significant but most of this is extremely useful, thanks!

    • Anonymous  → Dave

      No problem.

      Technically speaking, all the sample sizes for the match-ups are statistically irrelevant.

      However, I figured that something is better than nothing. Also, in theory these games should have been between similarly skilled opponents with relatively fine tuned lists. So, their results should be worth a bit more than random people playing a ton of games to gauge match-ups.

  2. barryfken

    You’re right about point 5 – Just like the “kicker” in Championship points, there should be a “kicker” to who makes the Top Cut. The less people who get cut out of the picture for placing 5th, the better.

    • Anonymous  → barryfken

      Well, I’m not so worried about how deep the points (kicker) runs. I just think that to have multiple people going X-1 and walking away with absolutely nothing (when the tie breaker is out of their control) is pretty poor. So, the solution would be to allow a larger Top Cut and let the players who go X-1 settle it on the tables.

      • barryfken  → Anonymous

        Yeah, that’s what I’m saying – I’m just using the kicker as an example. Depending on how large the turn-out of players is (let’s say there’s 64 Masters), the Top 8 should be expanded to Top 16 and so on.

  3. Ed Mandy

    There’s lots of good info here, and it’s well presented.  Thanks!

    Of your 5 points at the bottom, I want to chime in on #3.  I feel like it’s a slightly bad thing that people are more serious about and traveling for BRs.  I don’t think it has to do with expense, in my mind.  It’s more about the feel of the game.

    In the past (around here anyway), BR were small events that had a very laid-back feel to them.  It was mostly local players, and there was a lot of experimentation going on. 

    Now, BR are very important to obtaining a Worlds invite.  So far, the attendance at these BRs have a City’s feel to them.  The deck competition is almost like States/Regionals.

    Sure, there is still the casual player or people experimenting, but we’ve had 6 rounds of Swiss at 2 of our 4 events.  I think most of our Cities in the past were 5 rounds of Swiss.

    And don’t get me wrong.  When I say, “slightly bad thing” I’m just talking about the feel of the event.  I welcome any players that want to travel.  I just think that BRs are meant to have a laid-back feel that’s meant to accommodate new players and seasoned players to experiment with the game.

  4. Saturn

    Goth v. PrimeTime
    I played this match up at BR and I have to say that it is a 50/50 match. If Goth can get rid of the zone and/or lock up before one is set, it is game. If zone get’s powered up and keep it’s flow then it’s Prime time’s game.

  5. David Wiken

    I couldn’t agree more with the statement that PrimeTime is the skilled man’s BDIF. Hasn’t anyone wondered how it manages to win tournaments, despite a “bad” matchup to both the most winning decks? The people who play it to succession, play it because of its versatility. Although it does struggle against some of the uncomlex decks like  Tyram and ZPST, it offers an opportunity to flat out outsmart your opponent. On top of that, it doesn’t boast a single auto-loss, which is important in providing consistently good results. PrimeTime is definitely this format’s Sablock;)

    • Anonymous  → David

      I get what you are saying. I also think that PrimeTime is a little better than these results would indicate. However, I personally have a very hard time advocating it as any type of BDIF. According to the posted results (as of Tuesday I believe), PrimeTime had faced off against tyRam and ZPST a combined 28 times. It won only 8 of those. That is a 28.57% win rate. When a deck struggles that hard against the two most successful decks in the field, it is hard to say it is any classification of a BDIF.

      I get that many people will say, well that is not representative for so many reasons. Well let’s remember that by not looking at the Swiss round results (which I don’t have unless everyone who played writes up a report), we are eliminating the “less skilled” players and the “bad decklists.” It is a relatively fair assumption that because of the increased competition, on average, the decks in the Top 2 are high caliber lists and piloted by at least above average players.

      So, that leaves us with 28 data points that consist of good players with good lists to draw conclusions from. The conclusion is pretty overwhelming that ZPST and tyRam are much better than PrimeTime head to head. Toss in the fact that tyRam had more than double 1st places and almost double Top Cuts and ZPST was only five wins short of doubling PrimeTime and had 47 more Top Cuts than PrimeTime. Then you really struggle to make a case for PrimeTime being BDIF except in theory.

      I would say that PT is not comparable to SableLock for a few reasons. Primarily, SableLock was a relatively unknown deck (props to the people who developed it), but PrimeTime has been in the spotlight since Canadian Nationals. So, where good SableLock lists were available to only a select few, good PrimeTime lists have been available to almost everyone with an internet connection. Yet, it still got outperformed by ZPST and tyRam. Even more, people still chose to run more ZPST and tyRam than PrimeTime (with access to good lists). People play and want to play the best decks. It was that way with LuxChomp and it was that way with tyRam and ZPST durning BRs. So, in general, people perceived those two decks to be better than PrimeTime, on average.

      All that being said, I really like PrimeTime. Things could change as the season roles on and PrimeTime could make claim to BDIF status (most likely ZPST and tyRam will just get stronger with the coming sets). But until that happens, it is a very good deck that is just slightly outclassed by two other decks.

      • David Wiken  → Anonymous

        You bring a fair amount of valid points to the discussion, but I’ll still stand by what I said about the comparison to Sablock. The reason as to why I drew that parallel, was the similarities regarding matchups. In the same way that PrimeTime struggles against Tyram, Sablock had a trouble beating a set-ut G-dos. (Not accounting Loxchomp). Yet, a number of skilled players ,like US National champion Con Le, chose to play the deck despite G-dos’ popularity. The reason being, that even though Sablock had problems with the matchup, pure skill with the deck could grant you wins over less experienced players, despite you using the inferior deck. I believe this to be the case for PrimeTime as well. All in all, these statistics can’t really be used to disprove my comparison, seeing as it was set to a “swiss-scene”, rather that the top cut. The theory behind playing PrimeTime therefore becomes: Lesser skilled players will bring decks like ZPS and Tyram, thus making a usually bad matchup winnable through skill. The rest of the matchups all really go in PrimeTime’s favour. I’ll play PrimeTime.

        In the closing paragraph of your response, you also propose that Tyram will become a stronger deck post-Noble Victories. This, I can’t really understand… With Kyurem set to sweap the metagame with unbelievable force, Tyram will once and for all be washed by this new powerful water-type. Even though Reshiram gains certain cards like its twin brother EX and Eviolite, the sheer spread force of Kyurem simply becomes too much to handle. How do you see Tyram handling that?

        • Anonymous  → David

          I hope you are not getting frustrated. If so, I am more than willing to drop this. :)

          First, let’s tackle the NV assertion. Here is why I think tyRam gets better, why I’m not too worried about Kyurem:

          1) Rocky Helmet helps even out the only really bad (currently un-techable) match up: Goth. That 20 damage is going to be huge.
          2) Evoilete (SP???) is also going to be very good for the deck.
          3) Japan already has Kyurem (and Kyurem EX) and by all reports, tyRam is still a very good deck over there.
          4) Kyurem does not have as good of a partner for Energy Acceleration as tyRam and a relatively high energy cost.
          5) Kyurem is still a OHKO for Reshiram + PlusPower.
          6) Kyurem cannot OHKO anything in tyRam (except Cleffa). So, this opens the door for Max Potion + Junk Arm to manage the damage. Honestly, I know there is a lot of hype about spread decks right now (Kyurem, T-Tar, etc.) but damage is just too easy to control in this format for anything to be eaten up by it. If tyRam declines to use Ninetales, it will take 5 turns of Spread damage to OHKO anything (once tyRam is set up). Well that is five turns to abuse healing options (Max Potion, a Blissey Tech, Serperior, etc.) to control that threat. Don’t buy into the hype machine. This game at the highest level is still mostly a game about scoring OHKOs and Kyurem fails to do that.

          Now back to PrimeTime:

          First, you seem to be conceeding that SableLock was not as good as a good G-Dos list being playing by a skilled player. Second, the comparison to G-Dos is a little amusing. It is pretty obvious that the BDIF was LuxChomp (i.e. ZPST/tyRam). While SableLock players could hang with LuxChomp, it was fairly definite that overall, LuxChomp was the better deck. So, maybe you can argue that PrimeTime is a fun and slightly more complicated deck (i.e. SableLock), but that still does not dethrone ZPST/tyRam as the Co-BDIF (i.e. LuxChomp).

          I have no idea where you got the “Swiss-scene” thing from. Yes, the total number of Top Cut results come from Swiss rounds. Yet, the focus of my contention is the data we have from the Top Cut Final 2 matches. At the final table, PrimeTime and ZPST faced off 18 times. ZPST won 13 of those. These would have been good lists, played by good players. Similarly, at the final table, PrimeTime and tyRam faced off 10 times. tyRam won 7 of those matches, again the safe assumption is that these were good lists, played by good people.

          So in the best two out of three Top Cut format, PrimeTime was paired against tyRam/ZPST 28 times. PrimeTime only won 8 times. That is pretty solid evidence that in general tyRam/ZPST > PrimeTime.

          Your assumption is that if the PrimeTime player is innately more skilled than the ZPST/tyRam player, the PrimeTime player can win. That is a correct statement. However, if the PrimeTime player is of the same skill level as the tyRam/ZPST player, the data indicated that more often or not tyRam/ZPST will win. Thus, PrimeTime =/= BDIF.

        • David Wiken  → Anonymous

          (Before we continue the discussion, your should know that I really liked your article. I just like discussing the numbers;P)

          Hmm, I think you’re misunderstanding me a little bit. I’m not stating that PrimeTime beats ZPS/Tyram in a head to head match, considering they’re piloted by two equally good players. I’m just saying that the other matchups (Magneboar,  Gothitelle, Ross), despite their low numbers, are better for PrimeTime than the “real” BDIF. Hence, a skilled player, might actually be better off bringing PrimeTime to a tournament, seeing as he will be able to take down both lesser skilled Tyram/ZPS-players as well as any pesky Ross/Gothitelle-variant. Had that player brought Tyram, he would  probably have lost a game in swiss to a decenly built Gothitelle, thus risking missing top cut. In other words, the smart player’s “BDIf”.
          Back to the Sablock-comparison. I do not imply that Sablock was worse than G-dos overall – on the contrary. Sablock didn’t struggle heavily against Vilegar, thus making it an overall better deck…(But I guess, we should refrain from discussing a lost format…)

          As for your Kyurem-Tyram thoughts, I don’t know what to tell you. My personal HGSS-Red Collection testing indicates that not even a teched Serperior helps against the monstrosity that is Kyurem. 30 damage might not sound a lot, but with a full bench you’re looking at a massive 180 every turn. How can you consitently heal off that?

        • Anonymous  → David

          (it’s all good, I like this discussion also!)

          Fair enough about Primetime ~ SableLock.

          As for currently, I understand what you are saying about PrimeTime and the current tourny structure. I guess my point is that I would rather take tyRam/ZPST and win everything except Gothitelle or Ross (tyRam is better than MagneBoar straight up, IMO). Because as long as there is a serious threat of PrimeTime, MagneBoar, or ReshiBoar, there will not be that many Goth or Ross decks at an event like Regionals. So, your PrimeTime has just helped out my tyRam in keeping the bad match-ups in check (similar to how Vilegar and G-dos kept Machamp at bay or else LuxChomp would have struggled more). Then, even if I have to take a loss to Goth in Swiss, I’ll go 5-3, 6-2, or 7-2 and make the cut. Once in Top Cut I will not have to worry so much about Goth and rather get to play against things like PrimeTime.

          I’ll take the better Top Table deck over the one that will match up better against the mid/bottom of the field.

          As for Kyurem: The biggest argument is that Japan has it, yet, tyRam is doing just fine over there. Also, 180 sounds like a lot, but it is only 30 to each. So, unless you are planning on fitting in DCL or something, you can easily manage spread damage with Max Potion, Serperior, Blissey, Pokemon Center (Serperior in Stadium form), etc. I can tell you now, we are not going to come to an agreement on this one. Kyurem will not destroy the format, or rid the format of tyRam (or even ReshiBoar).

        • David Wiken  → Anonymous

          Nah, I think the translation for Pokemon Center was a little off… I believe it only allows you to heal one of your pokes for 20 or something – bummer, I know! At first it all seemed clear – Pokemon Center was made to keep Kyurem in check, but noooo….

        • Anonymous  → David

          Thanks for clearing that up.

          Even so, between Junk Arm, Max Potion, Serperior, Potion, and Blissey, I think there is more than enough to deal with the damage.

    • beyblade1410  → David

      Primetimes good if you have the 300 dollars to go spend on colored paper, thats why it’s not played as much.

    • Anonymous  → David

       

       

      I’d argue more that it is this format’s Dialgachomp. 
      It’s accepted as top tier, played less than its easier counterpart/nemesis
      (dragons) and is very unforgiving of misplays.  A player playing primetime
      can easily throw their entire game on a single misplaced energy drop. 
      Primetime requires a lot more math, thinking, and planning.  You have two,
      sometimes three, viable attackers that you have to switch betwen on the
      fly.  (Yanmega, magnezone, rainbow-powered Kingdra)  And that’s not even
      counting techs like ERL, Absol, Zekrom, etc.  Heck, the right play may
      even be to go aggr pachirisu, or aggro magnemite, if the situation presents
      itself.  Regardless, Primetime is passed over by new players both for this
      reason, and for cost.

      Here’s the deal with costs:

      Assuming 3 yanmega, 3 magnezone, and 2 kingdra, you’re looking at:
      35*3=105
      20*3=060
      17*2=34
      ————-
      Appx $200

       

      Now let’s take Tyram:

      Assuming 3 Typhlosion, 4 reshiram, and 2 ninetales (just to
      be fair):

      10*3=30

      7*4  =28

      6*2  =12

      ————

      Appx $70

       

      See the difference? 
      Ignoring staple T/S/S, primetime is little less than THREE times as
      expensive.  It’s not worth it unless you
      got the cards earlier, or you KNOW you can do well with the deck.  Primetime is not a deck one can invest in out
      of the blue.  It’s just not that
      economically feasible. 

       

      Going back to the playstyle issue, Primetime is very much a
      tactition’s deck, not a fighter’s deck.  The deck itself falls apart quickly without a
      well planned and comprehensive battle plan; one that must be formed on the fly.
       Not everyone can do that.  I intend no insult to players of other decks,
      but quite a few other tiered decks don’t require that level of planning.  When one can feasibly draw 12~14 cards per
      turn (between shuffle draw supporters and 1~2 magnetic draws) the usage of
      those 12~14 cards has to be optimized.  

       

      Once again taking tyram as an example:

       

      Tyram is a deck of resource gathering.  You want to get a whole bunch of cards in your
      hand, so you have as many options with plus power, switch, junk arm, catcher,
      etc.

       

      Primetime, on the other hand, is in the game of resource
      conservation.  Hitting the resources you
      want isn’t the hard part.  It’s all about
      doing the most damage (not necessarily literal damage, disruption counts too)
      for as little card use as possible. For example, it’s more favorable to strand
      an opponent’s energy accelerator active and taking damage, even if you can’t
      get the OHKO, rather than hit their main hitter.  When you cripple a deck’s support backbone,
      the attackers follow later.  

       

      As far as strategy itself, Primetime again differs from
      other decks.  ZPS’s goal is to swarm
      Zekrom and Tornadus to hit for cheap prizes.  Tyram’s objective is to swarm reshirams to
      tank and hti everything for 120.  Goth’s
      objective is to sustain a lock.  But
      primetime doesn’t have one single game plan.   Some games, you swarm nothing but Yanmega,
      such as against mewbox.  Other games, Yanmega
      becomes purely an early hitter, turning the game over to magnezone shortly
      after both players have set up.  Other
      games, a turn two magnezone can cripple your opponent’s start.  Some games, Yanmega/Kingdra becomes your plan,
      and you ditch the color yellow entirely. (Donphan variants) 

       

      I think the reason why everyone is saying that Primetime is
      this format’s Sablock is due to Josh being a loud proponent of both decks
      respectively.  He’s that popular.  But Sablock and Primetime are not quite the
      same, Sablock used manipulation of luck, topdecks, and denial of powers.  Primetime uses sniping, quick blows, and a
      heavy cleanup man instead.  Some could
      argue that Honchkrow SV is Magnezone’s equivalent, and I lend a bit of
      credibility to that argument, but I feel that the comparison to Dialgachomp is
      stronger.

       

      • Anonymous  → Anonymous

        and the master chimes in :)

        Good points. Especially about Josh being one of the loudest proponents.

        I fully admit that Primetime has more options and is more flexible. However, IMO, flexiblity does not always equal BDIF (neither does cost).  So, I’ll stand by the results.

        :)

  6. Matt

    GREAT article…I really appreciate the numbers even in limited amounts- thanks for the work you put in.  About Gothitelle Vs. Megazone, I have to apologize to lilac_Saturn – it’s nowhere close to 50/50 – any decent list being played decently wins that match up 80% of the time. No energy acceleration for Goth and Yanmega takes cheap prizes on Solosis’, Pichu’s, cleffa’s – MegaZone versus Goth is pretty much an autoloss for Goth – I played this match a lot both at  league and at two BR’s

    • Saturn  → Matt

      It’s no big deal, I’ve played the match up before, Tropical Beach plus Cheren/Sages usually PREVENTS Yanmega from snipping anything and like The Truth they are evolved before it does or you evolve the one that wasn’t snipped. (This doesn’t count for bad hands.) The only reason my deck lost to one at top cut was because of a miss play that I just “did not play that card”. It can beat it if the goth player gets goth up in time and catchers the magnetmites.

  7. Adam Capriola

    What is the difference between Zekrom and ZPST? And great article!

  8. Nathan Massey

    Very nicely done article, shows us the facts

    I especially agree with your last statement, how so many X-1’s don’t make Top Cut and it really is a shame

  9. Anonymous

    Quality article my man. Very informative and well written. Love the graphs too. Out of curiosity what did you choose to play and why? Also being relatively new to the game, über competitively at least, I have a question about the deck breakdown. Did this include all age groups? iif so if you have the figures would you possibly be able to share the individual numbers per grouping or at least a link to where you can find them? I know that’s a fair amount to ask but you have me curious and I would very much appreciate it.

    Keep up the good work.

    • Anonymous  → Anonymous

      Thanks! Welcome to the competitive landscape.

      The results are Masters’ Division only. In Juniors and Seniors the results leaned more heavily towards ZPST and tyRam.

      I went to one Battle Road and I played tyRam. Here are the reasons:
      1) I have a good history with it.
      2) I know it inside and out.
      3) I feel it is the most consistent deck in the format.
      4) It has good match ups against most things.
      5) It is cheap compared to other things.

  10. Franco L III

    Oh. My. Gosh. Gotta find out how the metagame is is my area for Fall Regs… So many matchups… o.O

  11. Jacob Willinger

    Great article!

    I was hoping Donphan/Dragons would do better :(

    • Anonymous  → Jacob

      Yeqh. I think that in general DD struggle to jit hard enough late.game to be a huge factor. It is one of those decks that is solid but not great.

  12. Nicholas Sinard

    Hey there! Great article, but if you used the pokegyms list, one of the 2nd place decks is actuallt a blastgatr not blastzel.

  13. beyblade1410

    Shouldn’t Pokemon International give us good starter decks and cool promos like Japan gets? It’s no wonder why Japan does so well they have much more access to better cards than us, it’s not fair.

  14. Anonymous

    Is naming:
    Tangrowth
    Scolipede
    Gigalith
    WAILGATR

    Really Importat?

  15. CalebM

    I play a “stage 1s” deck with cincinno/zoorark/donphan with wevile tech

    its still hard to beat reshiphlosion and/or zpst, but if you know what youre doing, you can win as long as you dont get really bad draws

  16. tim h

    For what it’s worth, Zekrom has a really tough matchup vs Reshiram decks. If they collector T1 and you’re second, you’ve basically lost. If they collector T1 and they’re second, you’ve probably still lost unless they don’t draw anything.

    The new champs points system was meant to stop people dropping. 

    However, what reason is there to keep playing when you lose your second match? No top cut = no points, and with no rating points there’s no reason to keep playing.

    The only thing the champs points system does is letting people drop and be sure there is no reason to keep playing than people dropping to try to ‘cheat’ the system. (Cheat figuratively, not literally)

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