Adding Some X and Y

How Flareon ‘Evolves’ for States
flareon fire stoneBulbapedia
Time to evolve.

Hello again SixPrizes. I’m back after a long break from writing to talk about something that is near and dear to my heart: Flareon PLF.

I’ve been avoiding writing again until I had found something I truly wanted to talk about. Now I finally figured out what that something is and that is Flareon.

I’ve been intrigued by Flareon since its release in Plasma Freeze, but I was skeptical of its viability. However, after seeing its successes at Worlds and Fall Regionals, I was convinced it could pull off some crazy stuff.

I honestly feel that this deck is a real contender going into States and has a lot of potential to become something great. While I haven’t had a lot of outstanding results (due in part by how few tournaments I played with this deck), I’ve spent a lot of time with it and regret not playing it more.

The Beginning

Initially I had no idea how to play the deck at all. I took inspiration from Kyle Sucevich’s list at Fall Regionals in the beginning, but the deck eventually morphed into a giant mess. The deck was hard to build and equally as hard to play, and it was soon apparent that I had a long way to go before I was any good at the deck.

I eventually found a list I could work with and played it at a few League Challenges. It worked pretty well, but needed a few changes. Not too much success, which was due bad luck, ties, and bad matchups.

Here is my initial list as I remember it:

Pokémon – 24

4 Eevee PLF 90
4 Flareon PLF
1 Leafeon PLF
2 Terrakion LTR
1 Roselia DRX 12
1 Roserade DRX 15
1 Thundurus-EX
1 Mewtwo-EX NXD
1 Audino BCR
2 Trubbish DRX
2 Garbodor DRX
1 Zorua DEX 70
1 Zoroark BLW
1 Magikarp DRX
1 Gyarados LTR

Trainers – 25

4 N
4 Professor Juniper
1 Colress

2 Random Receiver


3 Float Stone
2 Escape Rope

4 Ultra Ball
3 Silver Bangle
1 Super Rod
1 Computer Search

Energy – 11

4 Double Colorless
4 Blend WLFM

2 Blend GRPD

1 F

From what I can recall, this was my first real list of the deck. Later variants included Latias-EX, Kyurem-EX NXD, Drifblim DRX and PLB, and others.

There is a lot going on in this deck and I’d like to talk about some of the more interesting cards.

2-2 Roserade DRX 15

Did you know all Roserade cards are scratch and sniff? Try it.

Roserade has a really nifty Ability that acts as a Computer Search upon evolution called Le Parfum. Since my deck ran a lot of Pokémon, naturally, I felt Roserade fit in quite well with everything else and felt that the Ability would be clutch in any case.

While it was very useful, there were also times when it was unusable such as if one part was prized or if one part was discarded early on. It also hurt me when I was 10 or 20 damage away from a KO and it was on the field.

Overall, I feel that Roserade could still be a useful card, but is outclassed by what I had replaced it with later on (you’ll see).

1 Thundurus-EX

Thundurus was a last minute decision. I needed something for the Empoleon matchup and Thundurus seemed to be a decent choice. Furthermore, it could act as a backup attacker to get Special Energy back onto my field. Since the deck relied heavily on Special Energy, it didn’t seem like a terrible choice.

However, Thundurus was overall underwhelming and didn’t do much in any of the games I used it with. While being able to recycle Energy is nice, it didn’t make Thundurus worth a spot in the deck.

2 Blend GRPD

The “other” Blend was used in order attack with Leafeon’s second attack when there weren’t many Energy in play as well as threaten the opponent with a T2 90 with Heat Tackle. It also allowed Roserade to attack if needed. I felt a little uneasy going in with a deck that relied on Special Energy, but there weren’t any Hammer based decks at most of the events where I played it, so I wasn’t too worried.

1-1 Gyarados LTR
I am the “Gyarados guy.”

Okay. This is the one where most of you are scratching your heads and wondering “What the heck is that thing used for?” Let me explain.

Back when I first was crafting the deck, I had no idea how to build it. In the end, I gave up and just started putting things in the deck at random almost. One of those random things just happened to be Gyarados LTR. In all honesty, I thought the card was interesting and that it could have a place in the deck. So I’ve kept it in as a sort of inside joke.

Thus the hype-train was born.

Every time I’ve played this deck at an event, the Gyarados always gets a laugh. People think it’s funny that it would even be in the deck, and it is true. It is a little funny! There have even been times when people at events I don’t even know come up and ask me if I’m the “Gyarados guy.” It’s pretty neat, and the card has served me well. So if you happen to play one of my friends or myself at a tournament, you’ll know by the Gyarados we’ll keep out with our stuff.

Anyway. The card is an effective late game sweeper and has won me games in the past. I don’t know how good it actually is, but I like it nonetheless.

League Challenges were just the start of something great. Next stop, Cities!


After a few tournaments with the deck, I felt that it was time for a change. The deck needed some fine tuning and Cities was approaching quickly. So I made some adjustments, tweaked a few things here and there, and took the deck to a City Championships where I finished 4th!

Finally, my deck had been working as I had hoped. I managed to finish the day at 4-2-1 after cut.

Here’s the list:

Pokémon – 22

4 Eevee PLF 90
3 Flareon PLF
2 Leafeon PLF
2 Trubbish LTR
2 Garbodor DRX
2 Jirachi-EX
1 Kyurem-EX NXD
1 Terrakion LTR
1 Magikarp DRX
1 Gyarados LTR
1 Mr. Mime PLF
1 Audino BCR
1 Zekrom LTR

Trainers – 27

4 N
4 Professor Juniper

3 Random Receiver


4 Float Stone

2 Escape Rope

4 Ultra Ball

3 Silver Bangle
1 Tool Scrapper
1 Super Rod
1 Computer Search

Energy – 11

4 Double Colorless
4 Blend WLFM

2 Blend GRPD

1 F

Here I took a bit of a different approach to the deck. Since I knew that there were a lot of good players playing Blastoise that day, I went for a more aggressive Garbodor and Leafeon tactic. It ended up working well as I played – and beat – 3 Blastoise the last three rounds of the day. I couldn’t get any further at this event because I faced the worst possible matchup in T4: Plasma with Kyurem PLF. My run was ended, but I had a lot of fun.

A few new additions I’d like to talk about:

2 Jirachi-EX

So good I play two!

This card is beautiful in the deck because it can double as damage or a Supporter. Since you can discard Pokémon with Ultra Ball, getting Jirachi out is easy and usually beneficial. While it is a low HP Pokémon-EX and does take up a Bench spot, I think that it is still worth it in the deck.

1 Kyurem-EX NXD

Kyurem was supposed to be a soft counter to Plasma, but it ended up being a giant flop. I wanted something that could deal with Plasma without having to cut a bunch of room for Balloons, but there really wasn’t anything I could think of at the time.

Kyurem was lackluster and spent more time in the discard than on the field.

1 Zekrom LTR

Zekrom is basically all we have for a Lightning attacker pre-XY. Outrage has the Ability to 1HKO Empoleon after a hit, but it isn’t living too much longer. It also can’t take hits too well against Plasma, leaving it as a lackluster counter.

0 Zoroark BLW

It may seem strange that this card isn’t in the deck anymore because being able to Black Ballista for a Double Colorless is pretty good. However, I felt like I never got the Zoroark out whenever it was needed and it was situational to begin with. In the end, I found that there was a better use of space without the Zoroark.

How the deck plays

After playing with the deck for a while, there are a few things that I have learned about it.

1. This is a versatile deck.

This deck has the ability to counter, beat, and work around every deck in the format. There’s a certain amount that the deck can do at one time, but it is extremely effective at hitting everything really hard. Depending on the area you play in, this deck can switch roles and take up arms against pretty much everything in the format currently.

2. This deck has a learning curve.

When first trying this deck out, I underestimated how difficult it would be to not only play, but to build as well. There is no set way of playing the deck and it offers a lot of freedom that can make the deck even more difficult. By offering so much freedom, there are a lot of available options. It’s tempting to add cards that don’t belong and they could be unnecessary in many situations.

Playing the deck can also be tricky because discarding certain Pokémon could end up being a detriment later in the game. Some matchups require multiple pieces in order to get the win out.

3. It’s a meta-intensive deck.

Flareon is able to thrive if put into the right metagame. A meta with lots of Darkrai will make short work of Flareon and its chances fall drastically to win. On the flip side, a meta with lots of Virizion will propel Flareon to a much greater chance of victory. When playing with Flareon it is important to remember that and plan accordingly to the metagame that you are expecting.

But where does the deck go from here? How can it change and adapt from XY-on?

Let’s take a look.

Adapting to XY

The biggest players of XY are definitely Xerneas and Yveltal-EX. These are most likely going to be major players going into the next format and we will most likely see a lot of them. Yveltal in particular will see a lot of play when paired with Darkrai, but Xerneas and its Fairy friends will be there as well.

So, how can Flareon adapt?

Here are a few things that XY bring to the table for Flareon:

Raichu XY
Lightning is a good type at the moment.

Raichu acts the exact same way as Cinccino BLW. ‘Circle Circuit’ functions like ‘Do the Wave’ did, but has a huge advantage due to Raichu’s Lightning-type. Why does this matter? Well if you look at the biggest Lightning-weak threats you’ll see why. Yveltal-EX, Empoleon, Lugia-EX, and Tornadus-EX are all big threats to Flareon and all are weak to Lightning. They are all fairly popular and can be dealt with easily by Raichu.

Being an Lightning-type Evolution that runs off of Double Colorless is what Flareon has been looking for all along. Raichu is one of my favorite cards from the set and I’m excited to be using it.

Dugtrio XY

Dugtrio is another Pokémon that I think will make an excellent addition to Flareon as a Darkrai/Thundurus/Snorlax Counter. Dugtrio is very similar to Donphan Prime from the HGSS era, but it has just a bit less going for it in terms of health and defensive power. However, this does not stop Dugtrio from having a place in Flareon. Being able to 1HKO Fighting-weak EXs (with a Silver Bangle) is nothing to sneeze at, and Flareon may have gotten just what it needed to help against Darkrai in Dugtrio.

Muscle Band

Muscle Band is a fantastic Item all by itself. An additional 20 damage is extremely effective as we have seen with Dark Claw, but it is now available to everyone. This is a great addition to a lot of decks, and Flareon is no exception. There have been so many times when I have been forced to Vengeance for 110 damage against a 130 HP Pokémon when I needed to Knock it Out.

Silver Bangle helped Flareon because it made it easier for it to 1HKO EXs by needing less Pokémon in the discard pile. Muscle Band brings that same concept to non-EXs and gives Flareon and friends the ability to succeed in big KOs.

Rainbow Energy
It’s back.

Rainbow is one of my favorite Special Energies and I’m happy to see that it is back. I think that Rainbow it really helpful because it can be anything and everything. The damage counter hurts, but the naturally low HP of the Pokémon in the deck make it bearable. It adds even more versatility to the deck and could be a good addition.

At first glance, these are the most helpful additions Flareon is receiving from XY. They are very useful tools and will help the deck function better and more effectively in the coming months.

Before I continue, I want to address one card from XY that some of you may have thought I missed. That is Evosoda.

To put it plainly, Evosoda is a bad card. It doesn’t get around Evolution rules, it is inferior to most other search cards, and it is very specific about what you can search out. While it does seem like it would be a good inclusion to the deck since there are many Stage 1s in the deck, there are so many different Pokémon that it doesn’t help the cause. Furthermore, it cannot search out Basics like Ultra Ball and other search cards can.

Now that we have that out of the way, I’d like to discuss my projected matchups for Flareon going into the XY format against each of the top archetypes of today and predicted archetypes going into the coming format.


Before I continue, please keep in mind that most of these matchups come from prior experience and speculation on new archetypes. Some testing has been done, but since the cards are not fully released yet, proper/extensive testing has not been done.

Darkrai-EX/Yveltal-EX – 65/35

I think that this is a relatively good matchup for Flareon with a combination of Raichu and Dugtrio. I expect that Darkrai will become a 1-2-of instead of a 3-4-of with a higher count of Yveltal. If that is the case, it makes the matchup far easier and more favorable. A heavier Darkrai line, however, could cause problems.

Xerneas-EX/Xerneas XY/Aromatisse XY – 70/30

A toolbox approach may be needed.

Another good matchup, especially if they get a slow start. The Fairy cards as of now do not hit very hard very quickly and are meant to endure hits. Fortunately, Flareon is a deck of 1HKOs, making that strategy less effective.

While Flareon is currently lacking a Metal counter to Xerneas-EX, Cobalion LTR can be splashed into the deck with ease and make the matchup easier. A more toolbox approach could cause problems, which is something to keep in mind.

Darkrai-EX/Garbodor LTR – 40/60

This is an awkward matchup. While having no Abilities isn’t too much of an issue, Darkrai is a serious threat to the deck and Hypnotoxic Laser will mess up your Active on coin flips. It also makes your Bench susceptible to damage via Night Spear when it could normally be prevented with Mr. Mime. Additionally, Enhanced Hammers will have a field day and can really mess you up.

Blastoise BCR/Keldeo-EX/Black Kyurem-EX PLS – 70/30

This was already a fairly good matchup for Flareon assuming you play a healthy amount of Leafeon and Garbodor. There are ways to lose if you cannot get set up, but it is a fairly straightforward matchup.

Emboar LTR/Rayquaza-EX/Reshiram LTR/Rayquaza DRX – 50/50

This is another awkward matchup for Flareon as you have no reliable way to KO Rayquaza and Rayquaza-EX. Reshiram is relatively easier if you play a Water-type in the deck, but still 1HKOs you easily. If you can keep the lock up with Garbodor then you may have a chance, especially in the late game. Otherwise, it’ll be a rough matchup.

Virizion-EX/Genesect-EX – 90/10

This should be a very easy matchup for you, especially of you are able to go first. There isn’t much that they can do if you get a quick Flareon out. Your deck can easily fall apart if you get a bad N after a few KOs on your side, so it is important to take precautions.

Empoleon DEX/Dusknoir BCR – 65/35
Raichu can 1HKO Empoleon.

Raichu makes your time against this deck. You only need three Bench Pokémon and a Muscle Band to 1HKO an Empoleon. However, it is easy to 1HKO your Raichu back since it only has 90 HP. If you are careful with your Bench and manage your Raichu, the matchup could go your way.

Gothitelle LTR/Trevenant XY/Accelgor DEX – 80/20

If you see a lot of this in your area, Espeon DEX is an effective tech card that all but ensures victory. Audino BCR is also a viable option to eliminate status. Zoroark BLW is also very good here as you can copy Trevenant’s attack for a 1HKO and some snipe damage. Overall, shouldn’t be hard if it is teched for and is very winnable.

Dragonite PLF/Garbodor LTR/Victini-EX – 65/35

This is an interesting matchup. If you have something like Espeon DEX, then you could be able to stop the Item lock for a bit. Even if they have a Garbodor in play, Item lock doesn’t hurt you too much as long as you conserve Junipers to discard as many Pokémon as possible. With your low HP and a lack of a relevant Dragon to attack with, the matchup can be hard. However, since Dragonite is a Stage 2 and is fairly slow, it is completely possible to win and may even be in your favor if you can get enough Pokémon in the discard early.


Before I conclude, I would like to present a skeleton list of what I would expect to be played in Flareon in the coming format. Feel free to build off of it yourself.

Pokémon – 13

4 Eevee PLF 90
3 Flareon PLF
1 Leafeon PLF
1 Pikachu XY
1 Raichu XY
1 Diglett XY
1 Dugtrio XY
1 Mr. Mime PLF

Trainers – 19

4 N
4 Professor Juniper


4 Ultra Ball
2 Silver Bangle
2 Switch/Escape Rope/Float Stone
1 Tool Scrapper
1 Super Rod
1 Computer Search/Dowsing Machine

Energy – 8-9

4 Double Colorless

3-4 Basic/Special Energy

1 Basic Energy

Free Space – 19-20

The Energy may seem weird, but there are multiple paths you can take. Playing Special or basic Energy is up to preference and build. If your deck plays a lot of Colorless or single type attackers, the basic Energy would be better. If your build has a lot of different colored attackers, then special energy may be more appropriate.

I feel like the cards in the skeleton are the bare minimums of everything that should be played. Things can be added and taken away as time progresses.


Flareon could be a force come States!

Flareon is definitely one of my personal favorite decks of the current format. Its versatility, simplicity and power are definitely some things to be admired. The fact that you can do so much within a 60-card limit is pretty astounding. It has its faults and weak points like any deck, but they are able to be worked around with relative ease.

I think that this deck is a major contender in the coming format and is a deck to keep in mind when you are testing for States and beyond.

Thank you all for reading and I hope you enjoyed.


– Matt

Reader Interactions

36 replies

  1. ApokemonTrader .

    Raichu is something Flareon desperately needed, I won a cities piloting the deck (with baloons/dragons/terrakion and decided against garbodor due to so many tool scrapper being played at the moment) but the deck struggles against Empoleon and Lugia, raichu adds much needed coverage for these matchups (also Yvetal).

      • ApokemonTrader .  → Grant

        without garb Flareon is hardly a loss to Blastoise, if they use Keldeo, the Leafon response is obvious. Black Ballista is difficult to chain for 6 KOs and Flareon can normally 2 shot the thing regardless

        • Grant Manley  → ApokemonTrader

          It sounds as if you really haven’t played the matchup at all. I’ve played it extensively last format and trust me, you really don’t beat it w/o Garb. BabyBlack and Blastoise are huge problems when they start to attack, and maybe you can use that one Leafeon for one KO but big deal. Maybe even Super Rod for two KOs with Leafeon, and a late game KO with Flareon if you’re lucky, but that’s not enough to win the matchup.

  2. Grant Manley

    Raichu actually isn’t good because against Yveltal they just play Shadow Circle and against Plasma Balloons + Hammers is generally better. I played this deck extensively in the last format and liked it a lot but there are/were many better options. I agree with most of what you said though and enjoyed the article so +1. It also needs Garbodor and Mr. Mime badly.

      • Grant Manley  → Tyler

        But they are…
        Why do you not think so? Because LaserBank is better? I would probably run 1-2 Circle with Dowsing, and it only needs one in this matchup.

        • Tyler Morris  → Grant

          For the same reason that Genesect doesn’t play Plasma Frigate. It’s too easily countered and there are better options out there. Virbank is the only stadium Yveltal would consider using. Think about it: Virbank for benefits in every matchup except for Genesect, or play Shadow Circle that doesn’t help at all in 9/10 matchups, and may help very marginally against a random Flareon deck running around? I’m not going to devote a spot in my deck to that one guy playing Raichu.

        • Grant Manley  → Tyler

          Ehh, maybe you’re right. I would personally rather run 1-2 Shadow Circle along with my Dowsing to help against Landorus, Terrakion, Emolga, Thundy, and Raichu. While these Pokemon definitely don’t make up the majority of the meta (usually), I would think it’s worth inclusion. Unless you’re not even running Darkrai or Absol at all, which I was assuming we’re including with Yveltal.

        • Piplup_isPimp  → Tyler

          Genesect doesn’t rely on Plasma Frigate because it needs the extra LaserBank damage in order to get KOs without using G-Booster.

          Yveltal practically is a G-Booster when paired with a deck that has no trouble getting energy into play like Darkrai.

          Lightning types will be played next format to counter Yvetal. Darkrai will deal with each counter appropriately.

          However, unlike VirGen, Darkrai/Yveltal won’t want to waste space on something like LaserBank, especially when it can just sub half of the six cards you would normally be using for a Stadium can level the playing field with Plasma (which will be a thing next format with Muscle Band’d Luigas floating around).

          Moreover, LaserBank makes little difference in how much damage you can deal when you’ll need to have out a Virbank City Gym and play a Laser the same turn in order to get the extra 30 damage. That’s what Muscle Band is for (even though it does 10 less).

        • Tyler Morris  → Piplup_isPimp

          10 less damage is a big factor when considering most EX’s have 170hp. WIthout laser, Evil Ball will hit for less than a OHKO if we’re talking about comparing it to G-Booster unless you put all your energy on one Yveltal, which probably is not the best idea. Why not play Laser and save two energy for another Yveltal?

        • Jack Stensrud  → Tyler

          Well, you could always attach one energy, and play a single laser to add 10, while still retaining your ability to survive lightning-types. That way, even if your opponent does run Virbank and trumps your Shadow Circle, you could still drop Laser and add 30.

        • Tyler Morris  → Jack

          Or you could play Virbank and attach that energy to something like Darkrai that can deal with the lightning threat on the following turn. Playing laser without Virbank with so many other stadiums in the format doesn’t make too much sense to me.

        • Jack Stensrud  → Tyler

          That makes sense, I was just throwing out ideas that could possibly work. Looking at it again, that probably wouldn’t work.

        • Piplup_isPimp  → Tyler

          That’s kind of contradicting, saying that 10 damage makes a big difference but then suggesting to use a Laser instead of 2 energy onto one Yveltal (which has a 10 damage difference).

          My biggest issue here isn’t about getting the maximum amount of damage onto a single pokemon in a single turn, but rather the issue of space and overall damage output.

          LaserBank is a combination of two cards, which means there’s a possibility of you only getting one of those cards which may or may not even boost your attack for the turn.

          What’s more, Shadow Circle actually gives Yveltal itself support by making it harder for the opponent to take it out.

          After all, what good is a hard-hitting Yveltal when it only lasts 1-2 turns when compared to a slightly less powerful (in this case 10-30 less damage) that could last 3-4 turns.

          As of right now, no one can really say which route is best, LaserBank or Shadow Circle, but I’m willing to argue that Shadow Circle is the better choice because of the defensive support it lends as well as the space certain builds need for other cards besides Lasers.

        • Tyler Morris  → Piplup_isPimp

          My point is that you are able to conserve your energy by spreading it out and letting laser add to the damage rather than an energy. I don’t see what’s so contradicting about what I said – my argument is that 10 damage makes a big difference and you can hit that extra 10 damage by using laser instead of using an energy for it. Shadow Circle is easily knocked out and right now only assists against Raichu and Emolga EX….look at the benefits of Virbank and Laser (which by the way, is seriously not as hard to pull off as you are making it sound) vs playing Shadow Circle against the ENTIRE metagame.

        • Piplup_isPimp  → Tyler

          “10 less damage is a big factor when considering most EX’s have 170hp.”

          “Why not play Laser and save two energy for another Yveltal?”

          Those statements I found to be contradicted in the sense that you say 10 damage makes a big difference but then imply that you would rather save 2 energy (40 damage) by using a laser (30 damage) instead.

          None the less, conserving energy is always good, but a lot of times that results in failing to KO pokemon.

          The biggest flaw I see in trying to use Lasers in order to make up for damage while being conservative with your energy, is that you won’t.

          Lasers are there for OHKO’s, which means you’ll be pouring almost, if not all your resources into one Yveltal depending on the situation at hand.

          Shadow Circle is just there to act as support for Yveltal while making space in your deck for things like Max Potion, Red Card, or even Hammers.

          I’m sorry if I’m not making myself clear, but I don’t see the effect of lasers compared to how much deck space they take up to be greater than Shadow Circle and it’s lower card count and effectiveness.

        • Tyler Morris  → Piplup_isPimp

          Simply put:

          Lasers = more damage for less energy and lets you conserve your energy for multiple attackers.

          Shadow Circle = easily countered defense against a very small margin of the field.

          About the “contradicting” statements I made: the 10 damage IS a big deal sometimes, so why not hit that extra 10 more efficiently with a laser and virbank (30) rather than 2 energy (40)? I would rather hit an exact ko on an odd-numbered HP pokemon with less energy attached than over-extending my board into a OHKO while not having lightning weakness.

          Which is better:
          Yveltal-EX has Dark Claw and 2 Energy attached. The opposing EX has 3 energy attached to it. Yveltal player plays Virbank/Laser and gets the OHKO for 2 energy.


          Yveltal-EX has Dark Claw and 2 Energy attached. The opposing EX has 3 energy attached to it. Yveltal is not weak to lightning because of Shadow Circle. Yveltal player needs 2 more energy on his active Yveltal to score the SAME knockout.

        • Piplup_isPimp  → Tyler

          I think you’re misunderstanding what I’m trying to say:

          Lasers aren’t better than Shadow Circle but that doesn’t mean they’re worse.

          Both sides have their flaws; Shadow Circle can be bumped by another Stadium (which, over a series of games, isn’t easily countered against a very small margin of the field considering the majority of any field will have to involve countering Yveltal directly in one way or another) while Lasers can be nerf’ed through Virizion and/or Fairies.

          However, Shadow Circle provides a filler Stadium that benefits its host while leaving room for other cards whereas Lasers increase damage output to where you can decrease energy investments on a sole attacker with the same results.

          Both help out in one way or another, at which point the only thing that matters is preference.

          And I simply prefer (after testing) to use Shadow Circle and friends instead of Lasers.

        • Tyler Morris  → Piplup_isPimp

          I know what you’re trying to say, I was just arguing my stand on the initial topic, which was:

          “Yveltal practically is a G-Booster when paired with a deck that has no trouble getting energy into play like Darkrai.”

          and my argument was that Yveltal is not a OHKO-er without lasers because the amount of energy it takes to do that is unrealistic.

          I understand the benefits of shadow circle, but I believe they are far fewer than the benefits of a higher damage output that allows you to conserve energy that laser offers. The opponent can bump Shadow Circle out before they KO you from weakness on their turn. They cannot do anything about you hitting 170 damage from evil ball + poison that you played on your turn.

          How afraid are you of things hitting for weakness? The reason that Genesect doesn’t play Plasma Frigate has nothing to do with needing the laser damage. It has everything to do with Plasma Frigate being a terrible answer to a nearly irrepairable weakness.

        • Piplup_isPimp  → Tyler

          More numbers for you:

          1 energy on the defending pokemon=6 energy on Yveltal with Muscle Band for OHKO
          2 energy on the defending pokemon=5 energy on Yveltal with Muscle Band for OHKO
          3 energy on the defending pokemon=4 energy on Yveltal with Muscle Band for OHKO

          Those numbers may be difficult to produce, but they’re in no way unrealistic considering the energy capabilities of Darkrai style decks.

          Even more so, the addition of Lasers doesn’t change the amount of cards you’ll have to use in order to get the OHKO, just the type of cards themselves.

          And yes, decks using Virizion and/or Fairies can do something about you being able to hit 170 damage with the aid of Lasers.

          You do make a very good point about Virizion/Gensect, but unfortunately we’re discussing Darkrai/Yveltal which, when compared to Virizion/Genesect, is a completely different animal.

        • Tyler Morris  → Piplup_isPimp

          It’s unrealistic to have a favorable board position while getting 4 energy on an active Yveltal for a knockout. I didn’t mean it’s unrealistic to attack that way, it’s unrealistic for that to be your strategy (if you are trying to win).

          Lasers don’t change the amount of cards needed for a knockout, but they change the type of cards. Correct. You get 1 energy drop per turn. You are not limited with item cards. I would rather have the ability to make my limited energy drop more meaningful by playing item cards. I don’t really see the argument here.

          Virizion/Fairies prevents status from laser, but laser has huge benefits in every other matchup.

          Shadow Circle prevents getting hit for weakness against a very small portion of the field. Against every other matchup it’s nearly useless.

          Yveltal is very different from Genesect, I agree. You were the one that compared Yveltal to G-Boosting at the start.

          I’m honestly tired of arguing my point, though. If you want Shadow Circle, go for it. I hope it works out for you.

    • Matt Price  → Grant

      Thanks! While Shadow Circle is an interesting stadium, I don’t know how much it’ll be played. Especially right out of the gate. There aren’t a lot of threatening Lightning decks out there and easy KOs with Yveltal can be achieved easier with lasers. I wouldn’t be surprised if it were a tech or something, but it is far from a staple atm.

      • Tim Long  → Matt

        Depending on the deck, I can see play for shadow circle, but particularly in Darkrai/Hydreigon/Yveltal since, outside of Tropical Beach, they don’t have one solid stadium, and any way to avoid OHKO’s will help the deck immensely. I do think that Laser/bank is a far more dependable build for Darkrai Yveltal if Hydreigon’s not present, since its focus is more on heavy damage, as opposed to tanking hits

  3. Daniel Facciabene

    Lol, Espeon doesn’t stop Dragonite. I also tried Gyarados in Flareon, not bad, not good either, the 2 energy requirement is really a problem.

    • Matt Price  → Daniel

      I was thinking about Dragonite earlier and realized this same point. When I was writing this, I was thinking a little bit skewed and missed a few key points (like Espeon). It was an oversight on my part and I feel silly about it tbh.

  4. Grant Manley

    Another thing is that Faries is a bad matchup because they’re going to run through everything with non EX Xerneas starting T2 or T3.

    • Matt Price  → Grant

      There are ways around baby Xerneas such as playing a steel counter or getting lucky with your discards. As I had said, Cobalion OHKOs a baby Xerneas with 2 energy and a muscle band and doesn’t really get OHKO’d back. This is merely speculation point and wouldn’t feel bad if I was proven wrong!

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