A Gradual Ascension – The New Tier One

Discussion in 'UG Article Talk' started by DylanLefavour, Jun 13, 2013.

  1. DylanLefavour

    DylanLefavour Member

  2. Crawdaunt

    Crawdaunt Active Member

    Haha, ah... Exeggcute. Love the card! Funny to see someone actually seriously recommend it aside from myself. It's very much the 60th or 61st card... but it's also so fun to play with and useful whenever you've got to discard something! You'll never really find yourself thinking "man I wish I could topdeck Exeggcute" though. After all, Exeggcute is only good in the discard as a way of increasing your hand beyond your top deck, to alleviate your discards :p
  3. FlareStarfire

    FlareStarfire Front Page Contributor

    Intriguing. I am most interested in learning about the idea that tool scrapper doesn't improve blastoises matchup vs garbodor enough to warrant running it. This was exceedingly helpful and once I get home if you don't mind I'd like to pm you a couple questions.
  4. JayHornung

    JayHornung Active Member

    Exeggcute would see a ton more play IMO if it were a stage 1...or a basic that did something....
  5. AGGarchomp

    AGGarchomp Active Member

    Great read!

    I also like Exeggcute. I was curious as to your opinion on promo Landorus. You mentioned Mr. Mime PLF as a tech for Darkrai*, but not Landorus?

    *I'm not saying Mr Mime is bad, I've tried it and it can be good, but Landorus seems to be better-known as a Darkrai tech in TDK to the mainstream.
  6. Crawdaunt

    Crawdaunt Active Member

    OH MAN! Exeggcute as a Stage 1!? I'd throw that in... well still only Blastoise. But at that point, you could use it as a 2-of and people wouldn't slap you.

    I guess Weavile/Eggs would be more legit too.
  7. DylanLefavour

    DylanLefavour Member

    my thoughts on Landorus are mixed. On one hand, it plays a role similar to absol. It has better typing as well. However this is not he Judge format. Its not easy to match an 8 card hand or a 2 card hand. N only works to even hand sizes if you are behind on prizes or if prizes are equal. (And if they are equal you can't play your hand out that turn or you will lose the equality, effectively eliminating the effectiveness of your supporter that turn) I think landorus is too limited to be a consistent Darkrai counter.
  8. AGGarchomp

    AGGarchomp Active Member

    Pardon me for asking a second question, but would you expand on Absol's usefulness in TDK vs running a third Kyurem, consistency card, or tech?

    In order for Mind Jack to KO EXs, you need to have three of the following, as well as three Pokemon on your opponent's bench:
    30 from Poison with Virbank in play
    30 from frost spear damage
    3 Deoxys-EX in play
    Frozen City damage (in lists that run it)
    A fourth and fifth Pokemon on your opponent's bench

    or a similar combination.

    Kyurem, when able to use Blizzard Burn, needs two of the conditions from that list in order to OHKO EXs, barring additional benched Pokemon. Also, even if Absol does have three of those conditions, it falls short if your opponent has less than three benched Pokemon. This is all fairly simply, and I'm sure you already understood everything I've said so far.

    In this article, your reasons for using Absol were that it didn't have the same restrictions as Kyurem, could deal major damage for less energy, and let you avoid trading Kyurems. These are the disadvantages Kyurem has compared to Absol:

    It requires one additional colored energy to knock things out with one attack
    It cannot attack after using Blizzard Burn without any aid from Keldeo, Switch, Float Stone, or a combination thereof
    It has much heavier retreat cost

    But as for Absol being faster as far as energy attachments go, I would think a Frost Spear on turn one is far superior to a Mind Jack on turn one, mostly because of the likely Blizzard Burn on turn two, but also because of the bench snipe setting up for later KOs. As for Absol being usable when Kyurem isn't ready yet, isn't it still better to devote the energy attachment and Colress Machine to Kyurem, and attack with Raiden Knuckle, Helix Force, or Frost Spear in many cases? Absol is more fragile than Kyurem, and also less reliable with damage output, because your opponent can manipulate the damage taken. For example, if you are playing against a Darkrai deck, if the Darkrai player is worried about OHKOs from Absol, they can play with only two Darkrais and one Absol in play, effectively capping your Mind Jack damage at 120 or 150 with other sources of damage included.

    So, it seems like Absol is most effective when you need to score a OHKO on something with lots of HP, need to do it in one turn, and when your opponent's bench is mostly filled. Otherwise, you would attack with Raiden Knuckle, Helix Force, or Frost Spear, or if you had an extra turn, Blizzard Burn. Kyurem would be a more effective attacker in the long run with more HP and un-manipulatable damage when the deck can also use Keldeo-EX and Float Stone together to stream Blizzard Burns.

    What am I missing? If everything I have stated is accurate, it feels like Absol would be a situational attacker. Am I wrong? Is that one turn difference between Mind Jack and Blizzard Burn more important than I gave it credit for? Does benching a Keldeo and attaching a Float Stone take too much space to do consistently in the deck? Is the early game disadvantage less important than I thought? Does Absol's surprise factor make it better than I thought? Are the differences between Absol and Kyurem insignificant enough for any of this to matter?

    Again, I apologize for taking more of your time; looking back I probably could have been more succinct. Thank you for any answers you can offer.
  9. Chaostamer

    Chaostamer Active Member

    Absol is great because a lot of decks run pretty full benches nowadays (even Darkrai now that two Keldeo-EX is becoming the commonplace), so getting Mind Jack's base damage to 100 or 120 isn't that difficult. Nor is it terribly difficult to get three Deoxys into play, or to get the LaserBank. Then Absol has two big advantages over Kyurem: it can attack on consecutive turns and, more importantly, it can come out of nowhere. Kyurem has to sit on the bench for a turn before it can begin using Blizzard Burn, giving the opponent a chance to knock it out or disrupt its Energy and shoot that strategy down. Meanwhile Absol can swing for big damage the same turn it hits the field. It's particularly nice against decks like RayEels and Blastoise which love their full benches and can consistently one-shot your Kyurem before you can get off that big Blizzard Burn. One surprise Mind Jack can potentially one-shot a Black Kyurem-EX or Rayquaza-EX and set your opponent back at least a turn.

    There's also just the threat it presents from sitting on the bench. If you drop an Absol--even if you don't attach any Energy to it--your opponent is forced to play around it. Either they limit their bench size (which often presents a big disadvantage), or they use resources to knock out the Absol. Even if they only burn a single Catcher to get rid of it, that's still a Catcher spent removing a Pokémon worth only one prize and holding no Energy. Personally, I'm still not totally sure Absol is worth dropping the third Kyurem (I might prefer three Kyurem and the Absol), but I can definitely see why it's a popular play.

    Dylan, I'm curious about your take on a couple things. How would you fit Tool Scrapper in here? I've come to like it a fair bit in Plasma, but I'm struggling to fit it in alongside Max Potion (which I also really like). Also, I've been finding that I consistently have one or two leftover Balls at the end of each game. Given that Plasma lists are pretty tight, do you see merit in cutting down to just three (either 2 Ultra/1 Plasma or 3 Ultra, for bigger Thundurus starts).
  10. Vysekun

    Vysekun The Ninetales and the Grapes

    Food for thought - Two of the Blastoise players in Australia's Top 32 can attribute their demises to Lone Egg starts :/ (Christian Delloiaco and Steven Mason).
    http://challonge.com/auspkmnfinals

    Thoughts on Blastoise:
    - Play 4-0-4 Blastoise
    - Play 3 Keldeo EX
    - Eggs are worth it
    - 3-4 Beach
    - If I could go back, I'd swap dowsing for comp search
  11. FlareStarfire

    FlareStarfire Front Page Contributor

    Eggs are worth it even though it cost them their Top Cut run? Or is that a typo?
  12. Vysekun

    Vysekun The Ninetales and the Grapes

    I've found them to be worth it. At the same time, I also haven't invested much time into testing without them.

    I can't say propagation helped during Swiss for me, but I had a cacophony of other problems.
  13. FlareStarfire

    FlareStarfire Front Page Contributor

    My testing builds by default haven't included them at all, Vysekun. 4-0-4 Blastoise, 3 Keldeo, 3 Beach is definitely providing results.
    Vysekun likes this.