A Question About Best-of-3 50 minutes

Discussion in 'Pokemon TCG News & Gossip' started by baby_mario, Mar 11, 2014.

  1. baby_mario

    baby_mario Doesn't even care

    Have any of you participated in, or even witnessed (first hand, please) a match in which the third game was completed?

    A second question (because I want the title to be misleading):

    Does it matter?
  2. Googleplex

    Googleplex Rule #3: Wear your heart on your cheek

    Only played in 2 tournaments with Bo3 so far, and only one game managed to squeeze in 3 full games (and even then, that was on turn 2 of time). Last weekend though, out of 6 rounds I had 3 ties that would have been wins for either myself or the opponent with only ONE more turn (I remember that happening with us, @baby_mario ?).

    Can honestly say I really dislike 50 minutes best of 3, so to the second title I really think it does matter.
  3. snscompt1

    snscompt1 The worst Mafia player ever.

    Past weekend at States opponent won first, then I won the next two games. I agree with @Googleplex though, the tie I had that weekend and one of the losses actually wouldve been entirely different with just 2 more rounds.
    I really don't think it matters. I'm new to the TCG and this is the only way I know how to play. But the way I see it is that the players must adapt to this. Build faster decks to squeeze in the games or build a slow but heavy hitter to win one game and not finish a second. Not cheating as long as you're not stalling. The game changes, the cards change, yet the players adapt and still play.
  4. Googleplex

    Googleplex Rule #3: Wear your heart on your cheek

    I don't really think building faster decks is the problem. I ran (speed) Darkrai/ Yveltal last weekend, and 2 of my ties were with TDK and Blastoise: not exactly "slow" decks.

    The issue definitely lies in the system, not with the players. None of my opponents were what I'd call slow at all, and whilst I prefer to reserve judgement on myself, I have been told I play very fast. Besides, why should the system encourage stupidly fast playing and speedy decks?
  5. baby_mario

    baby_mario Doesn't even care

    I find it ironic that under the old first turn rules, which gave a massive advantage to whoever happened to win the flip, we played single games.

    Now they have done something to even it out somewhat we get B-o-3. Where was B-o-3 when people got to use Hammerhead and Frost Spear on T1?

    60 mins is needed for b-o-3 imo.
  6. I had two (I think, I might have 2-0'd round 6) games at VA States that were 3 complete games. That's terrible, though, considering the fact that it was 7 rounds (finished 3-1-3).
  7. OshaWaterBottle

    OshaWaterBottle Active Member

    I have never Tied (without ID's) but maybe it's because I am a fast player.
  8. KPiplup

    KPiplup An Imposter

    Definitely been a part of some...

    Of the 38 Bo3 matches I've played in 2014, here's my useless sample:
    Decided 1-0: 2
    Decided 2-0: 19
    Decided 1-1: 8
    Decided 2-1: 9

    Edit: found my Ft Wayne data and updated.

    Generally speaking, the winner of game 1 has only lost the match 1-2 in 1 of the above 2-1 decisions. I've heard the same reported often; if you win Game 1 you're very likely to at least tie.

    Game 3s are incredibly unlikely to finish; both players have to be decently paced, and the matchup needs to be something like Blastoise mirror. Towards the end of the 9 rounds marathons, with players even more tired, the odds seemed to decrease even further.

    The end of the 14 rounds after playing Pokemon for 30-36 hours with only 5ish hours of sleep? Forget it.

    Whereas previously you had to go 7-2 to guarantee a cut spot at your average regional, you now need to go something like 21-5 (and some degree of ties) in your individual games.

    Personally not a fan of how easy it is to tie, but I think it's an intentional tool used to help offset Top 8 cuts, which maybe makes it a necessary evil.
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2014
  9. Professor_N

    Professor_N Well-Known Member

    Honestly if they made it 60 minutes instead of 50 it would makes for a lot more completed series. One match that I played at States, me and my opponent had a decent timed 1st and 2nd game, but in the third game I took 4 Prizes in 5 turns. Time was called the turn after I took my 4th Prize. It is very possible I could have finished it out in the 3 turns, but I would never know, because my opponent and I decided there would not be a tie and the person in the lead would take the win. It is very possible, however, that my opponent could have attempted to avoid losing any more EX Pokemon for the following turns (he was playing Fairies so he could have sent in Aromatisse and then a beefy EX like Landy to avoid loss) and forced out a tie.
  10. KPiplup

    KPiplup An Imposter

    The problem there is that the US Regionals are already ending at 11:30PM-1:30AM for 9 rounds, depending on the tournament. Another 90 minutes over the 9 rounds would push that range to 1-3AM, which isn't something I think they want to do.

    I personally support large Regionals being 14 rounds of Bo1 30+3 with ties, or 9 Bo1 and keeping the Day 2 extra Swiss structure the same; perhaps those rounds could be Bo3. 12 rounds at 45 apiece is 9 hours, no worse than the current bo3 structure is.
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2014
  11. Professor_N

    Professor_N Well-Known Member

    Then perhaps make it so 2 days is mandatory for all players intending to finish their rounds. It will make it a much better game if we just had 10 more minutes a round. Heck, even 5 more minutes wouldn't be bad.
    Gelato likes this.
  12. baby_mario

    baby_mario Doesn't even care

    TBH I can see the problems whatever they choose to do.

    Mandatory 2 day tournaments are expensive. There will be players and parents who just can't do that.

    Midnight and later finishes are not good for anyone. Staff and players are knackered and not having a great time. The Juniors and Seniors were virtually falling alseep mid-match at Worlds last year.

    Single game is probably the best solution right now, especially since they adjusted the first turn rules so that losing the flip is less of a disadvantage. If that frees up enough time for Swiss+1, that would be so much better. The more rounds you have, the more accurately they reflect performance.

    Every year they mess around with the tournament structure and every year it throws up another set of problems. It's not an easy thing to fix. Bless them for trying, but I don't think this year's attempt is the best.
  13. KPiplup

    KPiplup An Imposter

    The problem with that is Day 2 becomes crowded quickly, time wise.

    Assuming 60 minute rounds can be turned over at 1:20 each (generous in some cases), with an hour lunch break at the end of a round, and that events should be done by 11PM:

    Reg 8:30-9:30
    Rosters/Players/meeting/finishing up reg until 10:15 post pairings then, once you've finished announcements r1 starts by 10:30

    R1 10:30-11:50
    R2 11:50-1:10
    Lunch until 2:10
    R3 2:10-3:30
    R4 3:30-4:50
    R5 4:50-6:10
    R6 6:10-7:30
    R7 7:30-8:50
    R8 8:50-10:10
    Allowing 50 minutes for any judge issues, computer delays, or other issues at the end is very fair I think.

    Day 2
    R9 9:00-10:10
    Post standings 10:10
    Post R10 pairings 10:15
    R10 10:20-11:30 (I think these can be turned over in ~10 minutes due to the lesser player count)
    R11 11:30-12:40
    R12 12:40-1:50
    R13 1:50-3:00
    R14 3:00-4:10
    Post standings 4:10
    Top 8 deck checks
    T8 starts at 4:30—Most Top cuts have been 75 minutes recently.
    T8 4:30-5:45
    T4 5:45-7:00
    Finals 7:00-8:15

    I'm not sure that's a timeline that can be dealt with, being that many players travel 5+ hours for Regionals. And that's forgetting the inconvenience of being there for one more round on Sunday.

    If 14 Bo1 30+3 Rounds at 45 apiece as I've proposed:
    R1 10:30-11:15
    R2 11:15-12:00
    R3 12:00-12:45
    Lunch until 1:45
    R4 12:45-1:30
    R5 1:30-2:30
    R6 2:30-3:15
    R7 3:15-4:00
    R8 4:00-4:45
    R9 4:45-5:30
    R10 5:30-6:15
    R11 6:15-7:00
    R12 7:00-7:45
    R13 7:45-8:30
    R14 8:30-9:15

    Top Cut Day 2. I'm undecided if I think 5 more Bo3 rounds, as we currently have on Day 2, is necessary or desireable. I do think it'd fit.

    If my estimate of 45 minutes is really too optimistic, I could still see running 12 rounds at an estimate of 50 minutes apiece as a suitable alternative. An extra 2 hours while cutting the last two rounds projects to finish at 9:45, something I would say is feasible.
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2014
    areuter likes this.
  14. Professor_N

    Professor_N Well-Known Member

    I'm beginning to think this; Why did Pokemon even go to bo3 swiss in the first place? Did they give any reason when they did or did they just say "oh hey, we are doing bo3 swiss now because LETS DO IT THAT'S WHY?"
  15. baby_mario

    baby_mario Doesn't even care

    They don't tend to give 'reasons' for things because it isn't a debate or a dialogue.
  16. Professor_N

    Professor_N Well-Known Member

    Yeah I'd assume they wouldn't. The players don't really have anything to say in the decisions Pokemon makes, I don't think.
  17. KPiplup

    KPiplup An Imposter

    The idea of Best of 3 is to get one, complete, good game in. That's been stated by OP.

    Basically, donk protection. My personal theory is that the XY rule changes weren't finalized yet.
  18. baby_mario

    baby_mario Doesn't even care

    That doesn't mean they don't take the wishes of the players into account. (EX tins, early rotation are two examples). A lot of people wanted b-o-3. Some people wanted ties back. Both of those things can work really well in a suitable format.

    That's the problem when people say Pokemon should 'listen to the players'. The players want very different things and don't all speak with one voice.

    Pokemon has a lot of people to keep happy as well as competitive players: collectors, retailers, casual players, parents, TOs, venue owners . . . oh, and their bosses and accountants.
  19. Googleplex

    Googleplex Rule #3: Wear your heart on your cheek

    It almost seems a little long just to ensure one, good game. In the current format it's generally enough for two.
  20. KPiplup

    KPiplup An Imposter

    I don't disagree. I think the idea is to offer protection against bad starts, but to make it hard to comeback from being down a game and get the win.