Tier 1 Blastoise - Blastoise BCR, Keldeo EX, Black Kyurem EX, Techs

Discussion in 'Competitive Deck Discussion' started by Ziggmiceter, Aug 15, 2013.

  1. KPiplup

    KPiplup An Imposter

    You absolutely don't need more then 8 Water/2 Lightning. A 3rd Lightning is understandable, and a 9th Water is excusable, but more then 9 is wasting space.
    jeffrey3421 likes this.
  2. CyrusTyler

    CyrusTyler Skill Level: Average Plebian

    I'm that guy who never likes being short on Energy, so I run a bit thicker lines. In my Deluge build I actually ran 15 Energy, call me crazy if you will, but it functioned rather well for itself.
  3. KPiplup

    KPiplup An Imposter

    There was a day when good lists ran 15-17 energy. That day was BW-BCR.

    This deck's goal is to take 6 prizes in ideally 4 or less attacks. With the advent of SER, and recently Letter, you'll get 1 (2 if you need to stretch it) attack from initial attachments, and 4 more from your Superiors, getting you to at least 5. This ease of energy access makes running excess energy unnecessary and subpar. Sure, there are games you'll have to jettison one without full effect, but Dowsing and Keldeo user alleviate that, and you rarely need 5 attacks anyway.

    If you're playing it right, 10-11 energy is plenty. If you're playing it wrong, that's your problem. Blastoise is so linear that it's not even funny. You can't even pull the sham "personal preference" argument.
    tonenkyra and jeffrey3421 like this.
  4. CyrusTyler

    CyrusTyler Skill Level: Average Plebian

    Your points are valid, and trust me I'm taking them to heart. (Kinda have to, you're a mod. Plus its good advice.)

    But too many times I've seen people use all of their Energy, or worse, spend it all on their Pokemon, leaving nothing in the deck or discard. Granted, of course, that this sounds like a beginner mistake, but I saw it happen in a state final on stream. It's a shame when it happens. But I still believe that having a strong Pokemon and Supporter line with the Energy a bit thick is just fine. Cut some energy if you HAVE to make room for the items that are absolutely required. I just don't like running out of Energy. No Energy, no attacks. Granted you have all the items necessary to grab the energy you need from discard and deck.

    I'm not saying run 20 energy, I'm not saying run even 15 energy. 9/3 split is fine. 10/3 split it comfy enough. 11/3 and 12/3 is passable, perhaps a bit much to everyone else and perhaps rightfully so, but if you have the space, no reason to skimp on energy.

    That's my spiel for the day.
  5. KPiplup

    KPiplup An Imposter

    Forget what the banner says, as I'm a mod of mafia games, nor does that matter.

    Ideal lists plan for ideal play. Subpar play of the deck can require different lists, I suppose.
  6. jeffrey3421

    jeffrey3421 Swarm Wannabe

    Problem is, there are tons of other cards that want that space too.
    To make space for those extra energy in a conventional Blastoise list, you would have to cut something else-be it Pokemon Catcher/Lysandre, or Surprise Megaphone, or even skimping out on consistency.
    I assure you, that Catcher or that Megaphone or the ability to set up more consistently will win you more games than those extra energy will.
    Gelato likes this.
  7. CyrusTyler

    CyrusTyler Skill Level: Average Plebian

    I drew this up on the fly. I question the usability of Lysandre and if it warrants more than 1 spot.

    TOTAL: 16
    4 Squirtle
    1 Wartortle
    4 Blastoise
    2 Keldeo-EX
    3 Black Kyurem-EX PLS
    1 Voltorb
    1 Electrode (Magnetic Draw)

    TOTAL: 31-32
    4 Juniper
    4 N
    3 Skyla
    1 or 2 Lysandre

    4 Ultra Ball
    4 Rare Candy
    4 Superior Energy Retrieval
    2 Float Stone
    2 Professor's Letter
    1 ACE Spec Master Ball/Dowsing/CPU Search

    2 Tropical Beach

    TOTAL: 12-13
    9 or 10 Water
    3 Lightning

    Allow me to explain the option of Master Ball. It functions as my fifth search option. It's like a Plasma Ball in the Plasma deck. That way if I have the Rare Candy and just the Master Ball I can immediately get the Blastoise, something I can't do if I had the Ultra Ball. I can use Blastoise to grab BKEX or Keldeo too. I'm not downplaying the usability of Dowsing or Computer Search, but rather making a case for Master Ball.

    And of course Skyla for Beach, etc. The rest is self-explanatory.
  8. Chaostamer

    Chaostamer Active Member

    If you're running Lysandre, you should consider running Jirachi-EX as well. Also, if you can manage it, definitely run more copies of Tropical Beach. I like four, but I think at least three is just about mandatory.
    KPiplup likes this.
  9. Professor_N

    Professor_N Well-Known Member

    I would be overjoyed if I could play 2 Beach in a deck. I would be in Empire, though, of course, because that deck is just so fun.

    Point is he's right, try to add another Beach, but if you can't, at least you have two.
  10. Wrags23

    Wrags23 Feeling... rogue.

    A 4-1-4 Blastoise line is definitely unnecessary. I run a 3-1-3 line and have no problems getting out a Blastoise. That also means you can cut your Rare Candies down to 3. 2 Float Stone is also unnecessary, as you can just Rush In/Manually retreat and still get the Energies back with SER or regular Energy Retrieval. 1 Float Stone could be a tech option, though. Personally, I like playing 4 Skyla to help with consistency and setting up your Blastoise early.
  11. Professor_N

    Professor_N Well-Known Member

    I like playing 4-0-3 Blastoise. More Squirtles stay alive and it's practically the same thing as 4-0-4 (or 4-1-4 in this case).
    KPiplup likes this.
  12. Wrags23

    Wrags23 Feeling... rogue.

    I think that 1 Wartortle is a good thing to include, not only for Item Lock decks, but it can also be a good attacker vs. Pyroar if you don't want to put your Blastoise at risk all of the time. Withdraw can also be a last resort stalling move.
  13. Chaostamer

    Chaostamer Active Member

    Wartortle also makes it much easier to get Blastoise out. If you miss the Rare Candy/Blastoise combo on turn two, you have a chance to search out Wartortle instead, which makes a turn-three Blastoise much easier to get. Alternatively, if you get the turn-two Blastoise, you can drop Wartortle at some point midgame to facilitate getting a second Blastoise into play, and disincentivizing your opponent from attempting to KO your Blastoise.
  14. CyrusTyler

    CyrusTyler Skill Level: Average Plebian

    How about -1 Blastoise -2 Lysandre +1 Water +1 Beach +1 Skyla?
  15. PokeGoat

    PokeGoat New Member

    I recall it mentioned in passing trying this deck without the beaches but what's the opinion on a decently competitive list that does NOT include Tropical Beach? We've been trying to work this deck without the beaches and it just seems to be lacking...Any suggestions to try and overcome their absence?
  16. CyrusTyler

    CyrusTyler Skill Level: Average Plebian

    Pokemon Center is somewhat useful. That's the only one I can really think of.
  17. Chaostamer

    Chaostamer Active Member

    Here's a list that Aaron Wang had some success with. It needs to be updated for Flashfire, but it's a solid starting point. [Source]

    ---Pokémon (16)---
    4 Squirtle BCR
    3 Blastoise BCR
    3 Keldeo-EX
    2 Black Kyurem-EX PLS
    2 Voltorb XY
    2 Electrode PLF

    ---Trainers (32)---
    4 Professor Juniper
    4 N
    2 Skyla
    2 Colress

    4 Superior Energy Retrieval
    4 Rare Candy
    3 Ultra Ball
    2 Level Ball
    2 Tool Scrapper
    1 Heavy Ball
    1 Professor’s Letter
    1 Dowsing Machine

    2 Pokemon Center

    ---Energy (12)---
    10 Water Energy
    2 Lightning Energy
  18. Wrags23

    Wrags23 Feeling... rogue.

    I've been playing Beachless Blastoise for a few tournaments this year, and while I will never say it is just as good as it is with Beach, it can definitely still be competitive. Here's the list I have been using:

    3-1-3 Blastoise
    3 Keldeo EX
    2 Black Kyurem EX
    2-2 Electrode (this is big)

    4 Skyla
    3 Juniper
    3 N
    2 Colress

    3 Rare Candy
    3 Superior Energy Retrieval
    3 Ultra Ball
    3 Professor's Letter
    2 Level Ball
    2 Startling M Phone
    1 Energy Retrieval
    1 Computer Search

    2 Battle City ( I like it over Center)

    10 Water
    2 Lightning
  19. Chaostamer

    Chaostamer Active Member

    I'm pretty sure I'm not going to play Blastoise at Nationals, so I figured I might as well share the list I've been testing. I'm really happy with it.

    ---Pokémon (14)---
    3 Squirtle (BCR)
    1 Wartortle (BCR)
    3 Blastoise (PLS)
    3 Black Kyurem-EX (PLS)
    2 Keldeo-EX (BCR)
    1 Black Kyurem (BCR)
    1 Jirachi-EX (PLB)

    ---Trainer (36)---
    4 N
    4 Skyla
    3 Professor Juniper
    2 Colress
    1 Lysandre

    4 Superior Energy Retrieval
    3 Rare Candy
    3 Professor's Letter
    3 Ultra Ball
    2 Level Ball
    2 Tool Scrapper
    1 Dowsing Machine

    4 Tropical Beach

    ---Energy (10)---
    8 Water Energy
    2 Lightning Energy
  20. Wrags23

    Wrags23 Feeling... rogue.

    Why not run Druddigon FLF instead of Black Kyurem? Sure, it only does big damage after a KO, but it can OHKO BKEX and Rayquaza EX for 2 less Energy.
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2014