“Can’t Beat ‘Em All” – Finding Your Way in a Diverse Metagame

Discussion in 'UG Article Talk' started by Bristow, Dec 12, 2013.

  1. Bristow

    Bristow Member

  2. Milky

    Milky Watercooling Veteran

    Loved the article. Here in Australia we haven't had league challenges yet so we don't know absolutes on whats going to be played.

    I see Team Plasma is not on your favorable decks, what would be Thundurus/Deoxys/Kyurem's NONE:LOW:TECH list?

    I think it would go like this:
    None: Gothitelle, Sableye/Hammers/Garbodor
    Low: Blastoise (maybe Virizion/Genesect)
    Tech: Tool Drop (Chatot) Virizion/Genesect (Spiritomb, although worried about bench space with Deoxys/Kyurems etc.)

    I'm sure that is mostly wrong so please make any corrections.

    Thanks in advance.
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2013
  3. Bristow

    Bristow Member

    Hey Milky,

    I'm actually glad you asked. Plasma decks have been a favorite of mine since this season began. I personally believe that Blastoise is TDK's only truly challenging matchup. Everything else belongs in the tech section. Blastoise is just too good at avoiding efficient KO's for you to handle if they set up quickly. Even if they are slow and you spread to everything with Kyurem, there's no guarantee that they won't Max Potion at a key moment and ruin your day. That being said, I want to point out a couple things for you that might be helpful:

    Based on your list, you find it hard to beat Gothitelle. Don't be afraid to use non-Plasma Pokemon! There is nothing stopping you from teching a Virizion EX and abusing the Prism Energies that you already run to combat the Accelgors. Additionally, if you already run Genesect EX, you can Red Signal the Gothitelles out of the active spot and combine the move with a Tool Scrapper on the Float Stones they have in play. This will slow them down a lot, especially if you bring a Dusknoir active, forcing them to devote yet another Float Stone to it, making it impossible to stream Deck and Cover's.

    Darkrai/Garbodor/Hammers can be a tricky one, but you can beat it pretty easily if you know what cards they run that hurt you. The only way I can see things being truly bad for you is if they ran a lot of both Silver Mirror AND Enhanced Hammer. You can handle one or the other pretty easily. Adding Scrappers and a Pokemon like Keldeo EX to hit through Silver Mirror after you have no Tool Scrapper left might be useful. If they are running Enhanced Hammer instead, you can pack a pair of basic Lightning Energy and outlast them with a double-Thundurus EX with well-timed Scrappers.

    Additionally, you mention that you might need to tech Spiritomb for Genesect decks. As it stands, Genesect has to G-Booster to KO a Kyurem in one shot. This means that they are wasting too many resources to keep up with your one-prize dragon to their EX. I don't think Spiritomb would be nearly as helpful as maybe more counter stadiums (incase they run Virbank), or once again, Virizion EX. These will prevent them from KO'ing Kyurems efficiently through Laser/Bank and you will win the trade in the long run. If you Scrap a G-Booster every time they use it on a Kyurem, they will almost never have enough Energy and Shadow Triad at the same time to win.

    Essentially, if you don't anticipate Blastoise, you are fully capable of running techs for the decks you DO expect to see. Be sure not to hurt the consistency core of your deck doing so. Hope that helps!
    Milky likes this.
  4. Milky

    Milky Watercooling Veteran

    What a truly amazing answer, thank you!

    I was already aware of the red signal play against Gothitelle but was always scared of devoting a spot to Virizion EX for bench space. You raise a good point because the extra 30 damage can go a long way to helping overcome the VirGen matchup and resisting special conditions from Gothitelle. I already run the Keldeo/Float Stone for resetting Blizzard Burn but they can always scrapper the Float Stone.

    I think I'll test more against Darkrai/Garbodor because I've always been told to trade with Darkrai using Deoxys, for two energy you two shot them and by using Deoxys Garbodor's lock doesn't matter anyway because you attack with Deoxys. Deoxys' prism energy requirement is what gets me there so maybe the answer is to just attack with Kyurem or remove a few prisms for psychics - which weakens the Virizion tech.

    Yeah, I didn't think Spiritomb was such a good idea either. I don't like to run techs like those, I just mentioned it as a possibility. What I find is getting around Virizion's resistance (if it's not taken out early they can continue Emerald Slashing until they have a full bench powered up) and them Red Signalling for an EX and getting a better prize trade in that way with G-Booster. I run two tool scrapper in my list though, so I think it'll be fine.

    Blastoise is truly the bane of my existence. Superior Energy Retrieval Black Ballistas are so infuriating. It's the same with Emboar, but to a lesser extent because of the weakness to water. Still though, Rayquaza doesn't bear that weakness so I like to power up Kyurems on the bench to where they can one shot a Quaza rather than spread damage in fear of my Kyurems getting decimated along with any attached energy.

    I'm going to edit this post with my Plasma list in a little bit. I usually like to have a second attacker on the bench ready to go but with techs and Keldeo it becomes a little hard to fit stuff on the bench. Ideally I usually like to have a Kyurem active, 3 Deoxys on the bench and a Keldeo/Float + one tech if necessary (Virizion/Genesect/etc.) or another Kyurem with one energy on it / a Thundurus.
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2013
  5. Bristow

    Bristow Member

    The Darkrai/Garbodor match will always be weird. When the Darkrai does inevitably come up, you are probably right to be swinging with a Deoxys, but running Promo Landorus can be huge as well simply due to the edge weakness can give you. Bangle puts that damage up to 160 without Abilities. As for Genesect again, another strategy is to try going with Heatran EX, as with just 2 Deoxys out, he will be able to KO a Virizion after you Raiden Knuckle. With 3 Deoxys, he OHKO's the whole deck, but that's when you need to watch out for the G-Booster.

    Frankly, however, if you like Plasma but are starting to find that too many of its match ups need teching for, which would slow you down eventually, you might want to consider trying Lugia EX as a focus. Lugia handles Blastoise twice as well as TDK, and handily beats Virizion/Genesect with the inclusion of Spiritomb. Additionally, you can beat Darkrai/Garbodor with the same level of ease that you would with normal TDK anyway. Granted, that's not easy at all unless you show up prepared to play it. Essentially, it just has better match ups due to the improved trading ability that it has with EX's. It struggles with Ray/Boar a little(if they run Zekrom), but that's where Metagaming comes in. The same techs apply as with TDK for all of your match ups, as you can run Prism if you need to. Lugia's "Metagame Chart" would look like this:

    None: Rayboar with Zekrom
    Low: Sableye/Garbodor
    Tech: Gothitelle (Virizion, Genesect, and/or Snorlax), Genesect (Spiritomb)

    To me it seems a little more reasonable than TDK:

    None : Blastoise
    Low : Rayboar
    Tech: Trubbish, Gothitelle, Genesect, Sableye

    It all depends on what you can fit into each list comfortably. I'd be happy to look at a list in PM if you don't feel comfortable posting it here as well.
    Milky likes this.
  6. Crawdaunt

    Crawdaunt Active Member

    Great article! Great advice, both general and precise!

    One thing I might amend, or comment on, is Tool Drop's match against Garbodor. I don't find Garbodor itself to be the problem, but rather Garbodor/Darkrai. Against most non-Darkrai Garbodor decks nowadays, you're facing Flareon/Leafeon which are OHKO'd by Tool Drop even with a Garb up. I haven't had loads of time to test the matchup, but that's my inkling. Have you or anyone else reading this found that to be the case? Does Tool Drop really care about Garbodor as a whole, or just Darkrai/Garb? @MDiaz1?

    Also, I don't feel like Blastoise has that bad a Gothitelle matchup. My experience has been about 50/50. Especially now that Catcher is rotated. Is Goth running Silver Bangle or something to OHKO Keldeos that try and KO multiple Goths in a row? Why do you feel this matchups in so unfavourable? @Bristow
  7. Bristow

    Bristow Member

    Crawdaunt - I think the reason I see Garbodor as such a threat is because its most common partner (that I see typically) is Darkrai. If the Garbodor is in a Stage 1 kind of deck (as you mentioned above, with Eevees etc.), Tool Drop can definitely still win. The second most popular, at least from what I've seen, is the Big Basics version. I think Tool Drop has a hard time dealing with Lasers and the Tornadus that the deck usually runs. With a full bench covered in tools, you max out at 140 if the only Pokemon they have with a Tool is Garbodor, and that can be a nightmare. Tool Drop needs the OHKO's to stay in the match. I watched similar scenarios at Regionals, as many of my friends played Big Basics/Garbodor and ran into Tool Drop decks.

    As for the Gothitelle vs. Blastoise case, I have to say I can't see it being 50/50 if both players are well tested. If you think about it, Goth players only need a couple Gothitelles each game to beat Blastoise. By timing it so that you promote a Gothitelle only after knocking out a Keldeo EX, and having a backup for the next Keldeo, you're almost guaranteed a win simply because they can't replace any lost Energy due to the lack of Items (No Energy Retrievals). It used to be a little closer, but now that Goth can just Skyla for its OHKO option on Keldeo EX, its nowhere near the same mark. If you hold the Keldeo EX's on the bench, they can just Deck and Cover the active, forcing you to lose 2 energies by Rushing In to use the same attacker or attack with Keldeo, leaving it likely to be knocked out. With typically only 10 Water in the deck, you will only have enough to OHKO 2 or 3 Gothitelles MAXIMUM, which they can compensate for by ignoring Dusknoir. And that's all assuming you do run Wartortle, which honestly doesn't seem worth it based on the above expectations for the average game.

    Basically, I don't think your average Blastoise list is very capable of beating Gothitelle. Things like Mewtwo EX might change the matchup a little, however.
    Milky and Crawdaunt like this.