Counters and Counter Counters – Playing and Beating Klinklang and Gothitelle/Accelgor

Discussion in 'UG Article Talk' started by badganondorf, May 28, 2013.

  1. badganondorf

    badganondorf Active Member

  2. QuarterTurn

    QuarterTurn Front Page Contributor

    Actually, it has 60. But it's a nice option, too.
  3. Crawdaunt

    Crawdaunt Active Member

    Oh crap, it totally does >.> I've been playing with a proxy Munna in my list because I have my less-played cards stored somewhere else, and haven't had the time/forgot to grab one in the last few weeks.

    Also, @Jay's list, I actually rather like the concept of his list as a whole. I disagree on the one Kyurem front, but everything else I think works quite well.
    Last edited: May 28, 2013
  4. baby_mario

    baby_mario Doesn't even care

    UG's Mr Controversy strikes again!

    Very good article though, and personally I think Kyurem is the best attacking Pokemon in the format once you take into account the support it gets and the fact it only gives up one Prize.
  5. jbcheshire

    jbcheshire Member

    I agree with how strong Kyurem PLS is in the Plasma deck.
  6. badganondorf

    badganondorf Active Member

    Crawdaunt: Yeah, 10 damage makes all the difference IMO and I have loved so far how well the 70 HP Munna has worked so far.

    baby_mario: Lol. But yeah, Kyurem - so good.

    And about Kyurem in general. Even though I think Jay's list was "good", I can't call a decklist that has only 1 Kyurem (which is the best attacker in the whole deck!) a good list even though the techincal aspects of the deck would be fine. After all, Kyurem is the heart and soul of the deck and without it, Plasma would be just another Big Basics deck on steroids (with worse typing). Playing with less than 2 Kyurems in any given metagame is IMHO pure madness.
  7. DCalpha

    DCalpha Underground Member

    The concepts that are given in this article in regards to team plasma decks are all great ideas. Plasma kyurem is one of the best cads I have seen in awhile. I just played a few battle roads this past weekend to get a few more points to lock in my invite. My Experience with the new landorus plasma promo, was fantastic. He provided fast support against the meta (thundorus ex / eels / darkrai / absol).
    I was the only person with the promo landorus Saturday and Sunday and won both tournaments. Just shows how good the card is for this format. Even the players that already have their invites we're making some intriguing ideas to BEST me in the tournament. With the lack of the plasma landorus promo they teched landorus ex, witch was a very good play for the day filled with plasma decks.

    Here is the list of pokemon used:
    3 Thun Ex
    4 deoxys Ex
    2 Kyurem PLF
    2 Lando (Plasma Promo)
    1 Lugia Ex

    Great play for the weekend, and the only thing I intend to change is maybe bump it down t1 lando promo depending on meta darkrai decks.
    Adam likes this.
  8. Pajamas

    Pajamas Underground Member

    I'm glad to see some recognition for Plasma Landorus as a solid play against the meta. I was shocked when Jay said he hadn't heard of the card... for $15/mo, I hoped that writers would at least be familiar with what the format has to offer.

    I don't sweat Klinklang much, but Goth has started to make me nervous. This gives me a lot of ideas to work with. Great article!
    DCalpha and Adam like this.
  9. JayHornung

    JayHornung Active Member

    Now I'm not going to start stuff with you Esa over a comment, but I do take an issue to this for several reasons.

    "I don’t like criticizing fellow UG writers, but Jay’s deck list in his last article was one of the worst Plasma lists I have ever seen on the internet. In my opinion it lacked focus on attacking Pokémon and Jay considered Kyurem as a tech even though it’s the best Pokémon in the whole deck! Not to mention that Jay’s list auto-loses to Klinklang."

    1.) Your opening statement was a straight attack on me, which I would contend is completely not true.

    2.) Your second sentence really didn't go into much detail, I will completely contend the 1 Kyurem being bad and after taking some heat strongly tested the second and loved +1 Kyurem -1 Thundurus EX. However, calling my list the worst on the internet because you seemed to disagree with my Kyurem count seems a bit over the top, but thats fine. I take an autoloss to a Tier 2 deck in this format seems like a poor argument at best to make as well.

    Now you said your actual list plays 2 Kyurem

    "At the moment, my current Plasma list plays 2, but I’m very strongly opting for 3rd Kyurem if Klinklang gets any more popular."

    Now I looked in your article and the only plasma list I saw was your heavy Kyurem count. So my next question is why don't we get to see your real list? Call me out on mine without letting me see yours also seems kind of dumb...

    I'm all for open discussion even if somebody disagrees with me. Provided that they give points as to why they disagree it furthers discussion and in my opinion makes both people better players. However you didn't give good points and you didn't post your REAL LIST, so its kind of hard to defend myself or reply to your comment in any sort of manner. I would hope both of us are to the age where we don't need to resort to "your list sucks, but mines amazing arguments." If you would love to go into more detail about what you disagree with me on and post your REAL LIST, I think we could have a great discussion. Beyond that all I can really say is I've always kept pretty quiet about people who hated on me in the past and instead always focused on putting up when it mattered like large major tournaments like US Nationals and Worlds. Its amazing how actions speak louder than words.

    Pajamas: Can't even really defend that, I should have known about it. All I can say is its a promo thats near impossible to find over here. Its seen no play locally either which made me unawear of it until Kyle started talking about it.
  10. Mr_Rumpleteezer

    Mr_Rumpleteezer Hovercat Mod

    "I don’t like criticizing fellow UG writers, but Jay’s deck list in his last article was one of the worst Plasma lists I have ever seen on the internet."

    Clearly you've never taken the time to browse these fine forums.
  11. baby_mario

    baby_mario Doesn't even care

    I would like to submit the following in support of Mr_Rumpleteezer 's statement

    Last edited: May 29, 2013
    Crawdaunt and Mr_Rumpleteezer like this.
  12. Charranitar

    Charranitar Well-Known Member

    don't see how your counter plasma list would tear apart klinklang. You run so much special energy, so Cobalion EX is going to rip you apart and prevent you from blizzard burning too often. You have no tool scrapper, so you won't shut off their exp share so they will have attacked the whole game. With only 1 Virbank City gym it will be difficult to keep in play, especially with no dowsing machine so you won't be able to take many ohko on Cobalion EX. If you can't blizzard burn, they will just knock all your Kyurem out with Plasma Bullet or Iron Breaker once they get enough energy on board while MaMax Potioning off the frost spear damage.

    I played the similar idea for my first battle roads http://thecharizardlounge.com/2013/...t-spearing-and-blizzard-burning-to-2nd-place/

    JW Kriewall and myself tested the klinklang matchup extensively and it was around 70/30, but that was with running all water energy, exp share to stream blizzard burn, and enough Virbank to properly counter the Beach.

    Even though Kyurem was winning around 70% of the time, it's not like it was a cake walk matchup either, the game would be close, with the exp shares for streamed Blizzard Burning being the main difference. Without exp share, less basic energy, and a really low Virbank count, I don't see anyway klinklang wouldn't be at an advantage in the matchup if it's a good list.
  13. DCalpha

    DCalpha Underground Member

    image.jpg

    See they exist. Just very hard to find.
  14. badganondorf

    badganondorf Active Member

    Jay: I knew it was an overstatement to say that it's the worst list on the Internet, but in the end that was just my way of saying I wasn't really happy with the list you provided in your UG article and I sincerely felt like you hadn't tested Plasma enough to make a complete article on it. I can't know for sure how much you had playtested Plasma, but that's how I felt after reading your article. The lack of Landorus and 1 Kyurem in the list were some affecting factors. I am pretty sure that there is no one who disagrees with me that you can't play with 1 Kyurem in your Plasma deck unless your deck is filled with Snorlax/Absol/Landorus etc. other non-EX attackers. Also, your deck didn't run Keldeo EX, so it pretty much folds to Gothitelle/Accelgor (which isn’t a tier2 deck as Klinklang, which I’m not sure is a tier2 deck either!) as well and since my article was especially concentrated on Klinklang and Gothitelle (which your list has very bad match-ups against), I think it was a valid point I made.


    And as I said in the article, I don’t' really like criticizing other Underground articles and I think this was first time I did so, but I was sincerely disappointed about the quality of the Plasma-article and wanted to point that out. One of the reasons may have been the reason that I know you are very high-caliber player and so are your articles. The article was just a huge let down compared to your usual level.
    The heavy Kyurem list is there due to the topic of the article. And it’s only considered as a counter deck against the decks that was discussed in the article. Nothing less, nothing more. And when it comes to my “real” list… Well, I think everyone knows why I don’t post my real list. If some of you don’t, I suggest you to think of the answer to the question carefully. The answer is quite obvious. However, I think I’m the most open person in the World of Pokémon TCG when it comes to my own lists (some think I’m even too open with them!), so I don’t really know why your brought the point up, because I’m sure you know the answer to your question as well.

    And one more thing. When I gave the article to Adam, I said to him that he may delete the “Jay-bashing” part and explained him why I wrote it. In the message to Adam I also said that I’m sure that you will do very well in the Nationals and Worlds and I don’t doubt that you’ll bring the big guns to there and will test for them more than to other tournaments of the year combined. But that has nothing to do with your article quality. I'm sure you will be doing once again extremely well in the Nationals and/or Worlds, but in the end it has nothing to do with your article quality. A player can win Worlds and still write a mediocre or even a bad article or the other way around. I criticized the content of your article, not you as a player or as a person. And when it comes to article quality, action doesn’t really have anything to do with it – only the content does. I think some of us still remember what happened in Underground after the pre-U.S. Nationals rotation in 2011.

    Feel free to disagree.


    On topic: I think it is kind a way funny how 3 sentences in a long article cause a lot more discussion than the rest 99% of the article. I guess I should have had it coming.
  15. baby_mario

    baby_mario Doesn't even care

    Everyone should know where they stand after Yanmega-gate, I guess.

    Plasma without Keldeo doesn't fold to Gothitelle, it folds to a set up Gothitelle. There's a big difference to exploit.
    Last edited: May 30, 2013
  16. badganondorf

    badganondorf Active Member

    True, but a well-built Gothitelle sets up at least against Jay's list in almost every game, because 6 energy for Thundurus EX/Kyurem and 4 enrgy for Deoxys EX is just not enough to get it rolling in T1. And if Plasma isn't able to hit in T1, they are usually in huge trouble. I even have trouble getting them hitting T1 with 4-4 split in every game.
  17. kgenthe

    kgenthe Member

    I think you could have handled it with a bit more tact, something like: "While in Jay's previous artical, his Plasma list focussed more on A, B, and C, I feel a more efficient and effective way to play is using X, Y, and Z."

    Deck lists evolve over time as player's experiment and try new things. The statement in your artical was harsh, and could certainly be seen as disrespectful. Luckily, all of us keep paying our monthly fee to read what both of you have to say...
    DCalpha and badganondorf like this.
  18. DCalpha

    DCalpha Underground Member

    JayHornung
    badganondorf

    Coming from an original UG member I have seen writers come and go. Just like any business, the people will speak out for what they want and how they want the material delivered. We pay $14.99 a month for any information/techs/deck/secrets that arise, to use in our games. Adam states in his introductory that the UG writers take testing time away from the UG members and provides them with knowledgable tested information of the format.

    I see a lot of writers saying "I haven't really tested a lot with this deck, but ahh here is a list".... Or "I have a deck I been testing and cant give any details about it" or giving us teir 2/3 techs that never work. I know some UG writers already have their invites to worlds so they might feel like they don't have to try as hard. If that's the case you should try even harder to relay information and put testing time in to help others with legitamtally good concepts.

    Think about having (Integrity) in your work. Keep people paying for the one on one with top players around the globe. Think about it, when your not in the pokemon world your superiors want you at the top of your game to deliver a great satisfactory job every time. Yes there is ro for corrections, but there is also room for replacements.
    Lotti and Adam like this.
  19. Crawdaunt

    Crawdaunt Active Member

    DCalpha I do not disagree. My approach to articles as of late has been "here is my decklist, I obviously feel like I've got a good thing going here." That is a lazy way to write articles, as there is little additional thought required, since you only have to speak on each subject a little bit. But in an article like Esa's, he is focusing on specific deck(s). To provide a complete analysis of the deck(s), it is important to consider all options, be they golden or pyrite. And to be sure it is worth the UG title it holds, the goal of the article is to leave no stone unturned. Sometimes, a writer may not accomplish that goal, or has wasted time by analyzing mere pebbles. Your feedback helps them improve for next time.

    I am not Jay, nor am I Esa. I do know that there are better ways to voice disagreement than badmouthing the other party. Respect is not earned through disrespect, and nothing good ever comes from it. This is something the UG community, and I hope the UG writers, understand now more than ever.

    To give credit where credit is due, however, though I disagreed with Jay's list, I felt his matchup discussion was valid and useful. I don't think anyone really needs to say more on the subject. If there is room for improvement, I am sure the authors understand that well enough. That is the purpose of these feedback threads after all!

    Without getting scrappy, I'm sure that everyone involved here can settle their disputes in the privacy of the message system. I'm also sure that the fine administrator of this site will listen to what the community wants. Adam does read the feedback posted in these threads, and provides his personal feedback to the authors throughout the whole process. That feedback goes into choosing who you as the community want to continue writing for the UG in the future! :)

    What I don't understand is... if everyone is so displeased with Jay's article, why is it the highest rated UG article this month? Why is it the 11th-most liked article of all time!? It was either a great article that everyone thought was useful, or it wasn't. According to the UG community as a whole, it was. This is why it's important to +1 articles you enjoyed, and perhaps it would be good to add, withhold from +1'ing articles you don't feel are up to snuff. And it is good to note that -1'ing an article does not actually impact its overall score. I am guessing Adam can see the totals for that, but doesn't want to open the gates for a potential "attack" on a particular article. So rate the articles fairly, and you'll continue receiving content that you, the users, have chosen to be most useful!

    Now... as I understand it, this is a thread to discuss strategies against Klinklang and Gothitelle/Accelgor. ;)
    badganondorf, zcbivens, Adam and 3 others like this.
  20. Nabeel

    Nabeel New Member

    Esa - trying to think through the right approach with your Darkrai deck vs Gothitelle. In testing it hasn't been fairing that well (especially for a tuned counter-deck). It does well against Plasma, as you mention. Do you try and play Sableye early? Or does this hit early with Darkrai to try and keep the bunch from being able to set up stage 2s?