Counters and Counter Counters – Playing and Beating Klinklang and Gothitelle/Accelgor

Discussion in 'UG Article Talk' started by badganondorf, May 28, 2013.

  1. baby_mario

    baby_mario Doesn't even care

    I see what you mean. There are tons of the things available in the UK on eBay (one seller has sold 81 at $7.50 each), but virtually nothing from the US. Similar things have happened before (the Riolu and Luxio promos), but this one is a bit more important for players.

    I was sceptical about the card at first, but having tested with it a bit I think it's a good addition to the Plasma line up.
  2. JayHornung

    JayHornung Active Member

    I bought 2 off of the UK seller for $7.50 each and figured at worse I'd unload them for $25-$30 at Nationals.
  3. DCalpha

    DCalpha Underground Member

    JayHornung

    Yeah I had them selling for 20$ each. 4 sold within minutes. I then had to purchase 8 more blisters from the UK and put 4 more up on eBay for 30$ each. I have a few offers, who knows if I get a genuinely nice customer I would sell them for 10$ each....;)
  4. JayHornung

    JayHornung Active Member

    That UK seller unloading them at $7.50 each could be making 2/3 times that...nobody is listing them on ebay.
  5. baby_mario

    baby_mario Doesn't even care

    She is selling them for what she can get in the UK, I suspect. Any more and people would just buy the blister pack.

    I've bought stuff from the seller in the past btw - very reliable and professional in my experience.
  6. badganondorf

    badganondorf Active Member

    I hope this explains my mindset about the Plasma lists. The analysis got so throughout that I'll post it to my blog tomorrow as well with small changes, so I don't directly post Jay's list there.




    List Number 1



    Pokémon:

    4x Deoxys EX
    3x Thundurus EX
    1x Tornadus EX PLF
    1x Lugia EX
    1x Kyurem PLF
    =10
    Trainer:
    4x Professor Juniper
    4x N
    3x Skyla
    2x Bianca
    1x Colress
    4x Pokémon Catcher
    4x Colress Machine
    4x Hypnotoxic Laser
    2x Switch
    2x Team Plasma Ball
    2x Ultra Ball
    1x Max Potion
    1x Float Stone
    1x Scramble Switch
    2x Virbank City Gym
    =37
    Energy:
    4x Plasma Energy
    4x Prism Energy
    3x Double Colorless Energy
    2x Blend Energy WLFM
    =13


    The Good


    4-2 Hypnotoxic Laser / Virbank City Gym
    What I like about this list is the 4 Lasers and 2 Virbanks. I have very hard time fitting 4-2 line of these cards in any Plasma variant, because Virbank is especially against any other Basic deck very useless as it can benefit them more and if they are able to play it before you, you have 2 dead cards in your deck. I prefer playing 1 Virbank just, because my opponent will probably play it.

    4 Deoxys EX
    4 Deoxys EX is pretty much a must for every Deoxys EX deck. Granted, you will open with a LOT since you only have 6 non-Deoxys EX attackers and that’s why you really should have enough Switch cards in your deck if you are playing 4 Deoxys EX. Most Plasma lists need 4 Deoxys EX, because if you run 3 and prize even one of them, you are in huge trouble if your opponent KOs one of your remaining Deoxys EXs. 1 Deoxys EX on the bench is NOT enough.

    14 Supporters
    I would love to find space for a 15thSupporter in Plasma decks, but the fact is that the space is just TOO tight in Plasma lists. If you can put 15 supporters in Plasma deck and still fit all the techs you want, you are a master deck builder.


    The Bad


    1 Lugia EX & 1 Tornadus EX
    What I don’t like in this list are the low amounts of REAL attackers. Lugia EX can be considered as a tech, if you only run one of them and you can’t rely your game plan on one Lugia EX. Tornadus EX on the other hand – well, it’s just a starter. Hitting 120 with 4 energy is just ridiculous for Plasma decks, because they don’t have enough energy acceleration. Against most decks Tornadus EX is as an attacker very bad as it’s weak to Lighting (Thudurus EX / Eelektrik variants), it uses too much energy resources (Enhanced Hammer Darkrai EXs eat you alive if you attach 4 energy to Tornadus EX) and it isn’t a fast attacker, which you would need against decks like Gothitelle/Accelgor. If you Windfall just once against Gothitelle with this list, you probably have already lost the game.

    1 Kyurem
    So, you have 1 Lugia EX, 1 Tornadus EX and 1 Kyurem. Thinking about drawing all the 5 prizes with Thundurus EX and Poison? Kyurem is THE attacker in this deck and without energy disruption like Hammers, Kyurem would be a staple of at least 3 in every single deck. However, I think everyone knows that 1 Kyurem is not enough. You will open with it too rarely (T1 Frost Spear is so good) and it’s your ONLY non-EX attacker in the deck. Practically you can scoop against Klinklang with one Kyurem and even against some random Sigilyph deck will win you, because of this. You can’t even force your opponent into a 7-prize game with only one non-ex attacker in your deck.

    2 Switch – 1 Float Stone – no Keldeo EX
    So the deck runs 6 good starters, 4 bad starters and 3 Switch cards…in most games you will open with the Pokémon you don’t want to open and with 3 Switching cards there is nothing you can about it! Also, I don’t even think that Thundurus EX can be considered as a good starter since the deck only runs 6 energy suitable for Thundurus EX. I have trouble drawing my 8 Lighting energy in the first turn and I don’t know what kind of magician you have to be in order to get the 6 energy working. I believe most lists play even more than 8 energy suitable for Thundurus EX.

    Also, Special Conditions will kill you with 2 Switches. If you have discarded one Switch in the early game, good luck at getting rid off Special Conditions with one Switch in your deck… One unfortunate heads tails from the Hypnotoxic Laser and you are in a prize and coming back will be difficult. Not to mention, it would be pretty annoying if this happened to your fully loaded Tornadus EX or Lugia EX.

    I don’t understand the Float Stone either. There really is no situation, where it’s better than Switch. It doesn’t get you rid of the Special Conditions and in most situations it’s just used one time. Not to mention that if your opponent happens to run Tool Scrapper, it isn’t useless, because they can always use it on Float Stone, whereas normally it would be a dead card in their deck. Running Float Stone is just not optimal without Keldeo EX.


    2 – 2 Team Plasma Ball / Ultra Ball
    First, 4 Balls is an overkill and second, the deck really wants Ultra Balls, so you can discard the energy in the early turns. Ok, maybe this deck wants to run Plasma Balls just, because you will never have enough energy in your hand in the early turns, which you can use to discard and to use Thundurus EXs attack to get the energy back. I think the optimal amount for Plasma lists is 3 Ultra Balls or in some extraordinary situations maybe 2 Ultra Balls and 1 Team Plasma Ball. I’ve tried both and time after time I go back to 3 Ultra Balls, because it’s so good in T1.
    Energy Lines
    This is the most bugging part for me in the list. 3 DCEs, but only one Lugia EX. Running Tornadus EX is no excuse to run 3 DCEs, because Tornadus EX can’t be one of your main attackers in the current metagame (otherwise you’ll get toasted). Tornadus EX is just not energy efficient enough compared to its firepower in the current format.

    Also, as I explained before 6 Lighting energy (Blend and Prism) aren’t just enough. You won’t draw into them in the early turns, and early turns are the MOST IMPORANT turns for this deck. It should be a fast deck and these energy lines just don’t support the early turns well enough.

    You can always use DCEs to retreat your Deoxys EXs, but do you really want to attach an energy for retreating, where you normally could just attach energy to one of your attackers? I think not. Back in the day, when I ran 2 Lugia EX in my Plasma, I even then ran 2 DCEs, because finding space for 3 is impossible. Unless you run 6 Lighting energy of course…

    Colress
    Especially with this amount of Balls and since you want your bench full almost all the time, Colress is very good in this deck. I think 2 Colress is the optimal count, because in the very early in the game you and your opponent will probably have at least 6 benched Pokémon combined. And after that, everything more than 6 is just plus for you.
    Overall thoughts about the list
    The biggest problem I have with this list is that I believe it’s too inconsistent and has no real game-plan. The deck can’t rely on Thundurus EX in the early game, due to the very low energy amounts. It can use Tornadus EX as the main attacker in every match-up, but we all know what happens if you do that. The deck could use the one Lugia EX to tear through everything since the deck DOES run Scramble Switch. However, with the lack of Thunder Knuckle energy, loading all those energy on Lugia EX isn’t an easy task. Kyurem is a very bad in this list since you don’t really have energy on it. You’ll be drawing DCEs and Plasma all the time even though you would like to get Blend and Prism energy.

    The list has no real focus on anything and that’s the only thing Plasma lists should do. Have focus on early hitting with Thundurus EX, have focus on Lugia EX etc. In this deck it seems that there are just random cards put in together, which have no real synergy and top of that even the trainer and energy lines don’t support the lack of focus in the list.


    List Number 2

    Pokémon:

    3x Thundurus EX
    4x Deoxys EX
    2x Kyurem
    1x Landorus
    1x Lugia EX(Plasma Gale)
    =11




    Trainer:

    4x Professor Juniper
    4x N
    2x Bianca
    2x Colress
    2x Skyla
    3x Ultra Ball
    4x Colress Machine
    4x Pokémon Catcher
    4x Hypnotoxic Laser
    1x Virbank City Gym
    4x Switch
    1x Dowsing Machine
    1x Max Potion
    =36




    Energy:



    4x Prism Energy
    4x Blend Energy WFLM
    4x Plasma Energy
    1x Double Colorless Energy
    =13
    The Good


    2 Kyurem – Landorus
    For a long time I ran 3 Kyurem, but soon noticed that Landorus really is worth its space in the metagame full of RayEels, Darkrai EX and Plasma mirrors. It’s very good against all of these decks and with its second attack it can also give headache for Gothitelle from time to time.Kyurem is very good in the early game and so is Landorus. Whether you want to open the game with Kyurem or Landorus is a very difficult question. It depends mainly on what your opponent opens with.

    Also, it’s good to mention that with these 3 non-EX attackers you are always able to force your opponent into a 7-pirze game when played wisely and it gives you directly and advantage especially in the mirrors unless your opponent is in a topdeck mode. If that’s not enough, with 3 non-EX attackers you don’t have to worry about Plasma Klinklang match-up.


    The amount of good starters
    This deck has 7 good starters compared to the first list. On top of that it has 4 Switch cards. And a lot better energy lines to actually SUPPORT the attacker you might open with. You don’t really get anything by opening with Thundurus EX if you aren’t able to draw energy to it and get energy to discard pile.


    Stable energy lines
    8 Blend/Prism is the ultimate minimum I would ever play in Plasma. I still sometimes whiff the energy with these energy lines, but playing more would make the rest of the deck worse. 8 Blend/Prism is already a compromise and I think running anything less than 8 is just a bad gamble.

    3 Ultra Balls
    A lot of people asked why I played Ultra Ball in the first place, but as everyone has already tested Plasma, I think everyone is comfortable with running Ultra Balls in Plasma. You want those energy to the discard pile and you want them as soon as possible. Preferably in T1. As I said before, I used to run 2-1 Ultra-Plasma, but I just found Plasma Balls weren’t good enough.

    4 Switch
    It’s 4 Switch or bust. Or 2 Keldeo EX and 3-4 Float Stones. There is no other way of running this deck in my opinion. You MUST have someone attacking T1 and switch cards are your insurance for that in the early turns. If you run less than 4 Switch cards, a skilled player will get you stuck in the late game and feed on easy prizes.



    The Bad



    Gothitelle/Accelgor match-up
    Since the deck doesn’t run Keldeo EX, Gothitelle/Accelgor is a very difficult match-up unless you are able to get a very strong start. I know what I am talking about, because I tested this match-up a lot before my Nationals and it was one of the main reasons, why I decided to run Gothitelle instead of Plasma. Without 2 Keldeo EXs, the match-up is favorable for Gothitelle without a T1 OHKO by Plasma.


    Overall thoughts about the list
    I’m quite happy with the list, but the fact that I didn’t play it in the National Championships obviously tells you that I’m not quite comfortable how the deck still functions. I would prefer having 2 Lugia EXs in the deck, because I really like the Lugia EX approach, but finding space all the things necessary is very difficult in a Lugia EX variant. If I had played Plasma in the Nationals, this list would have been the list.




    Also, it was already brought up that Jay didn't mention Landorus in the article, but what made me wonder even more was the lack of Absol in the article. It's good tech in Plasma and it's a staple in Darkrai EX nowadays. I just felt the article was outdated even before its release.

    I really should have made this an Underground special article or something like that... Well, next time I will comment on these forums will be after my Pre-Nationals article, so I think I made myself clear enough. And I aplogize for going overboard with the statement worst list on the internet. I really hadn't sought for that many Plasma lists on the Internet :p
    koji and Lotti like this.
  7. jbcheshire

    jbcheshire Member

    Honestly, to me, both of those lists seem to rely too heavily on either Thundurus or Deoxys as your main attackers. I would prefer more Kyurem and some other attacker with more plain energy and less dependence on Thundurus.. I play a pretty heavy Hammer deck and I am able to really hurt these two decks listed here...
  8. badganondorf

    badganondorf Active Member

    Heavy Hammer decks do have an advantage against any Plasma variant - I witnessed it with my own eyes in Japan eveb with an outdated Hammertime. That's an undeniable fact. But heavy Hammers make the other match-ups worse, so it's all about metagaming.
  9. Crawdaunt

    Crawdaunt Active Member

    Tornadus EX PLF is my bro. My friend Jay assured me I wasn't crazy. He be tight! Dat windfall. And if you leave it alone, fwoo! Watch out! Jet Blast be knockin' dem pokes like they was wood. Naw son, I don't go nowhere wit'out my Tornadus backup bro.

    Aw shiznizzle!
  10. baby_mario

    baby_mario Doesn't even care

    Translated . . .

  11. JayHornung

    JayHornung Active Member

    I would still like you to go into more detail about how Keldeo EX/Float Stone improves your Goth match up that dramatcially?
    Milky likes this.
  12. kgenthe

    kgenthe Member

    I think it's time to let bygones be bygones.
    JayHornung and Crawdaunt like this.
  13. JayHornung

    JayHornung Active Member

    I still think good heated debates bring out good discussion if people can stay on topic and leave the personal attacks out of it. Two people that each arguing their sides is great imo, problem is when people start throwing resumes, competition level, tournament size, etc. into arguments you end up with a brawl of insults and back and forth belittleing rather than worth while discussion. I still think we have some great points here that needs to be discussed like how useful is Keldeo EX in the Goth match up (really curious on this one because you called me out on this, but than don't play it yourself)? If Absol is so note worthy why aren't you running one?

    The 4 Switch/0 Float Stone also stick out...many times early in the game you'll want to get a Dexoys or Kyurem out of the active spot, Float Stone will accomplish (from Skyla) without needing to just waist a Switch.

    I'm also curious about Dowsning it was the weakest of the 3 Aspects we tested. Scramble Switch was by far the leader with computer search coming in 2nd followed by Dowsing.

    The 3 Ultra Ball Count seems really low, but this seems to be the direction you want to go. I prefer 4 Pokemon search...but to each his own I suppose and this is more personal preference than right/wrong.

    We also tested the 1 Virbank...issues came up in match ups like Blastoise where you would need it to 1HKO something or in match ups like Mirror or Darkrai when the opponent wouldn't play it down early.
  14. kgenthe

    kgenthe Member

    I know this was directed at Esa, but here are my thoughts:

    I think any deck that doesn't play Keldeo has an unfavorable match-up against GothLock, even Plasma. Sure they can put on early pressure with Thundurus and Kyurem (or even Lugia speeding up the process) and hope to steal the game before the Goth player sets up, but in my year and a half of playing "hope I outspeed them" has never been a good way to approach a match-up.

    I've played GothLock during 3 Battle Roads and have gone 12-3 (1st, 7th, and 3rd). In my experience, if the Plasma deck "whiffs" those early KOs, the Goth player will have no problems locking a Keldeo or Deoxsys active and winning even with just an average set-up. I would not feel comfortable going into Nats without an actual plan to beating Gothitelle.

    So far I am 2-2 (playing with Goth) against Plasma decks. The first loss was a close game, my opponent was able to catcher-kill a lone shelmet setting me back a turn early game, and had a game-breaking N on the second to last turn, giving me 2 useless cards when I had the win in hand before the N. The second loss was a donk.

    In my 2 wins, one did include a Keldeo and Float Stones. I was able to scrapper the float stone, and then lock the Keldeo active for the win. The second victory was fairly standard, falling behind 3 prizes, and then setting up and winning (they did not play Keldeo).

    So I've effectively proved myself wrong, lol. Teching in Keldeo doesn't swing the Goth matchup...
    I also beat 2 decks that did in fact play 2 Keldeo (Ho-oh and RayEels). Obviously RayEels is a good match-up for Gothitelle as you can remove all of the Eels in play at once, limiting them to a single attachment per turn. No amount of Keldeo is going to save them. The Ho-oh was actually interesting as the player played DCE and water, and was able to 2-shot my Goths easily. But again, once Dusknoir was in play, I moved the damage to KO one Keldeo and then locked the other.

    Perhaps a tech Skyarrow bridge in Plasma would be more effective, allowing a Rush-in, single energy attachment, single energy retreat, then attack?
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2013
  15. JayHornung

    JayHornung Active Member

    You get like 1 turn of Skyarrow and than it gets bumped next turn by Beach...I would bother for a meh stadium imo. That was my point with Keldeo, it was extremely situational even against Goth, because you rush in you still have a 2 energy retreater up front.
  16. Crawdaunt

    Crawdaunt Active Member

    If you run DCE, I can see Keldeo helping a little. Assuming Plasma gets started, then you have a Pokemon fully charged (whatever it is) by turn 3. If they get goth up turn 2-3, and start attacking on turn 3, you can bench Keldeo+dce and retreat Keldeo allowing you to continue your assault on turn 4. That could be the game-changing early pressure that deals the matchup.

    I wouldn't tech Keldeo just for goth. If I played a kyurem-focused build, I might tech Keldeo/floats for streaming blizzard burn. But that is taking a different approach to the deck, which may have a slight advantage compared to a normal plasma build against goth.
  17. DCalpha

    DCalpha Underground Member

    I say come worlds "Jay" and "Esa" sit down have a mirrior match!use there ownlists and see whoms ''Deck Techs'' come out ontop. we would love to film this event. best out of three games. all BS aside battle it out....:) ill even provide the prize support....$$$$

    Also on the note of the new genesect format magalo cannon.... i know a japanese player through pen pal fourms. a fewof the winning lists are running x2 keldeo ex and 3 float stones. The wins i have had this battle roads with team plasma deck i have played 1 keldeo ex and 2 float stones. Something to consider when playing aginst goth. Im sure we can get into a full discussion on goth catchering keldeo and using scrapper on a benched and active keldeo, and not being able to use traiers. {IE} switch- float stone.

    I played:

    3 thundorus ex
    4 deoxys ex
    1 keldeo ex
    1 lugia ex
    2 kyurem
    1 landorus

    This gave me enough attackers to suffice my list.

    We can all see clear as day what the differences are in jay and ESA's lists. We don't need to argue about it at all. The fact is the insult. Witch was discussed any how. Like I said settle it with an epic battle....:}
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2013
  18. Charranitar

    Charranitar Well-Known Member

    The plasma lists that have been doing well the past few weeks here have been pretty similar to Jay's. The differences I think are minus a Thundurus for second Tornadus, a single Snorlax, and Keldeo/float stone as the main switching mechanism.
  19. baby_mario

    baby_mario Doesn't even care

    That . . . really doesn't sound much like Jay's list in the article at all.

    He said he wanted to increase, not decrease, the Thundurus line and didn't want to run more than 10 Pokemon.

    You could equally say it's like Esa's list, but minus a couple of Kyurem and a Thundurus for 2 Tornadus and a Snorlax.
  20. kanelsnurr

    kanelsnurr New Member

    "It’s very good against all of these decks and with its second attack it can also give headache for Gothitelle from time to time."

    "So the deck runs 6 good starters, 4 bad starters and 3 Switch cards…in most games you will open with the Pokémon you don’t want to open and with 3 Switching cards there is nothing you can about it!"


    Really, Esa?