Eel vs Eel: Comparing and Contrasting Speed and Smeargle Builds

Discussion in 'UG Article Talk' started by JayHornung, May 17, 2012.

  1. JayHornung

    JayHornung Active Member

  2. Crawdaunt

    Crawdaunt Active Member

    One thing I will say on the Heatmor vs. Durant debate is that everyone is probably unconsciously (or consciously) affecting people's decisions to play Heatmor. All sorts of articles keep saying only bad or average players will play Heatmor (which I think is true), and good players won't. What's hilarious is that this means anyone out there who might fit into that category will probably choose not to play Heatmor even if they were considering it, because they'll be taking advice from the masses that if you're a good player, you won't be playing Heatmor.

    Which to me, just leaves mostly bad players teching Heatmor. The kind that have never heard of a site like sixprizes, and show up after testing at their local league against friends, or play 3 games on playtcg.com and call that playtesting, and then make claims their deck is tier 1. I think if there wasn't this stigma about Heatmor that says "If you're good, you don't need this card," then we might have more Heatmors to start out Battle Roads. But as it stands right now, I think we're going to see low Heatmor play. Whether Durant can force people to re-evaluate that is another question, but I don't really know about that one.
  3. DCalpha

    DCalpha Underground Member

    Great take on the meta jay.

    The draw/search engines for bw-on are..
    4 juniper
    4 N
    3/4 Bianca
    2 random reciever
    3 ultra ball
    2 level ball

    This just goes to show how consistant random reciever cam all ways keep you drawing.
    Bianca, is a phenomenal card thats over looked even now and will probably pop up in decks
    For Roads.

    Now if your playing hydreigon or garchomp when dragon sets come out. most of the Japan winners used 3 candy in dark decks because sableye being and drawearly mid late junk hunk helps alot. Even garchomp had 3 candy because of its speed evolutions.

    Basically people.should try Bianca and its usefullness its a super consistent supporter and sure way to draw. So grab your play sets because they will be hot
  4. Pikabruce

    Pikabruce Member

    Regarding Ultra Ball, you wrote
    Actually, it's only 5 cards discarded for 1 Pokémon. Let's say Junk Arm is card #1. Play card #1, discard card #2 and card #3 to get Ultra Ball. Play Ultra Ball, discard card #4 and card #5 to get Pokémon.
  5. Ultra Ball is card #6.
  6. JayHornung

    JayHornung Active Member

    Crawdaunt: I think you would be surprised, and remember Heatmor doesn't need to be teched in masses to effect Durant. Lets say 30% (3 in 10) people tech Heatmor thats a considerable amount for a deck that already bats just 50-50 or so with most of the field. Regardless of the level of player you are if you find Durant to be a tough match up spending 1 spot to tech Heatmor is a good tradeoff.

    DC: I agree Bianca will be huge next format expecially if the only engine we have is the Ball Engine

    Pika: Eli's right Ultra Ball is #6...sure you can say its 5 cards but it seems like a pretty pointless debate to have.

    Eli: Yep!
  7. Saturn

    Saturn Member

    I think Durant will see play week 1 of battle roads (It did win a regional...) and will not have any problems due to people not playing with heatmor. Then week 2 and on people will realize it is still a problem and it will be thrown in decks (there are a lot of people really sick of the ant since it didn't disappear at states due to Reshiphion not coming back like it did in Europe. If you played in Michigan...every other deck was Durant besides CMT and Zeel)

    I'm still not sold on Raiku...I might have missed it but what are your reasons for Raiku EX over Zekrom EX? Zekrom has higher HP, higher attack power. I know Raikou snipes for 100 which can be handy for taking out eels/celebi/ Zoroark without catcher. But they are both in the same boat when it comes to Terrakion. Zekrom can take it out and Raikou has to take out something on bench and then continue to deal with the Terrakion...

    Also I put two Groudon EX in quad Terrakion...it's pretty fun I recommend it.

    Other then that thank you for the article!
  8. lucarioAdventure1

    lucarioAdventure1 i swear on me mum

    Awesome article Jay, I personally seem to like Smeargle and Dual Ball in eels maybe I'm insane idk
  9. JayHornung

    JayHornung Active Member

    Santurn: Raikou certainly isn't the MVP of Zekrom rather 1 more opition the deck has. I once again prefer the slight amount more of utility. This is more playstyle than an actual physical rule.
  10. Saturn

    Saturn Member

    I really want to play with both (I have a soft spot for Zekrom EX too) but it's just too much with Tornadus EX in there too and I know he is a must with the pick up of fighting since dark and electric are weak to it. I just seem to keep fighting over the two. Every game I started with Raiku ended badly, Every game I started with Zekrom I barely got out of. They seem to be kind of equal in use ( which is frustrating). I run the 4 tynamo and in your opinion is the 3 -1 retreat still good or should it be 4 and no retreat?
  11. Pikabruce

    Pikabruce Member

    Pointless Debate? Game on! :D

    It's pointless if the question is: "How many cards end up in the discard pile?" (Who cares?) But if the question is: "What is the minimum number of cards needed in hand before you can Junk Arm to Ultra Ball to Pokémon?", that is a very real gameplay question. If you are holding 4 cards, you can't do it; if you are holding 5 cards, you can.
  12. JayHornung

    JayHornung Active Member

    Saturn: Thats a tougher call if your running 4 Tynamos I feel 3-1 is fine if your running just 3 go all 40HP.

    Pika: 5 cards needed in hand 6 played total. I completely agree with you that 1 card difference does matter. However, I do maintain that discarding 5 cards to get 1 Pokemon out of the deck is a highly situational play which makes the inclusion of Level ball very much needed.

    Lucario: I can't say your wrong by any means. While I discussed my reasons for play Collector in the article I certianly can't hate on a player for playing it with Dual Ball.
  13. Retro

    Retro Member

    I run Smeargle in my Zeels. I may take it out though.
    My list is kind of a mix between your Speed and Smeargle builds.
  14. Reshiphlosion

    Reshiphlosion The Swarm

    I have some questions,

    1. Do you think that smeargle is honestly better with collector than dual ball? I've tried dual ball and collector versions and I'm not sure what to think (collector might be better due to still being able to play smeargle and use another supporter that way...) Also would 1 smeargle work? Or is 2 a must?

    2. is Zekrom EX that much of a liability that you take him out for Raikou? I mean sniping for 100 is great, but if you play 3-4 catcher and catcher/strong volt your doing 150, not 100 to the same target.... I'm just confused here....

    3. how many draw supporters/pokegear/random receiver would you recommend in zeels? I currently run 9 with 1 random receiver right now, but I think that's on the low side.....

    sorry if I'm loading you with too many questions, I'm just a little confused on what to do with the new meta =.= I really enjoyed the article though! It was perfect for anyone playing zeels :)
  15. Blue_Horizon

    Blue_Horizon New Member

    The way I see it is that Raikou has 2 major advantages over Zekrom EX:

    1) He allows a drag up and snipe around style of play. If you are running out of options, and need some time, you can drag up an eel, then snipe around, while also playing N the same turn.

    2) Raikou's 1 retreat allows for free retreat with skyarrow bridge, something Zekrom lacks. Sure you can switch zekrom to recharge him, but raikou is much more versatile in this regard. Also when you don't have catcher, Raikou can always take prizes whereas Zekrom is dependant on your opponents active pokemon.

    I feel Raikou fulfils more niches in the format than Zekrom, hence why Jay did a straight swap between the two.
  16. JayHornung

    JayHornung Active Member

    Reshiplosion:

    1.) Yes I feel its marginally better...but not enough I'll hate on anybody for using Dual Ball. 1 Smeargle would work but I feel you should be running another Supporter over the 2nd Smeargle

    2.) It allows you more opitions...which I'm always a big fan of. Zekrom EX is brute force which I feel the deck has plenty of. Once again this is a personal preference issue I wouldn't hate on somebody for playing Zekrom EX and not Raikou EX.

    3.) I would agree thats on the low side 11 Supporters/Random Recievers is about as low as I would feel good about.

    Blue: Completely agree Raikou offers opitions-Zekrom offers brute force
  17. hampuse

    hampuse Member

    Awesome article!
    Best one in a long long while. I love how you focus on one deck and try to be more original than the others have been in the past weeks. I was getting tired of looking at the same almost same lists over and over.

    Looking forward for your next article!
  18. JayHornung

    JayHornung Active Member

    Hampuse: Thank you, I'm about half way through the CMT article now :)
  19. Reshiphlosion

    Reshiphlosion The Swarm

    okay thanks for answering my questions guys! :) I'm not really missing Raikou when I don't play him so I think he's just not for me..... but thanks again!
  20. lucarioAdventure1

    lucarioAdventure1 i swear on me mum

    Have you tested the mirror yet, for me he is a godsend in there