Tier 2 Gothitelle LTR/Techs (Accelgor DEX, Dusknoir BCR, Mew EX)

Discussion in 'Competitive Deck Discussion' started by Wrags23, Nov 24, 2013.

  1. WolfusMandrago

    WolfusMandrago Squatting below parallel

    With Celebi EX, you can keep the item lock by using Gothitelle's moves. By using other attackers we lose the lock. It's something to consider with any tech.
  2. areuter

    areuter Member

    What I meant was that you don't always have to have a Gothitelle out. What if you run into Garbodor? Mew can use, ley's say Hammerhead or X-Ball, and you can win the game with a Mew and you don't even need Gothitelle. I think you know what I'm trying to say. . .
  3. thematteo0

    thematteo0 The quintessentially British gentleman.

    You *COULD* use Prism/Blend Energies but ultimately where are you going to find the room for them without cutting down cards that are useful to the deck, particularly if you are also suggesting running Pokemon Catcher as well. The decklist is tight and whilst I could see you fitting in a couple of Energies you would probably need more to consistently draw them during a match, particularly as you are suggesting using opposing attacks which use three Energies two of which cannot be DCE's.

    Also consider this...if you attack with Mew EX and don't use Deck and Cover then you don't have any Trainer Lock either so the opponent is free to use Pokemon Catcher, Tool Scraper etc.

    The opponent can OHKO your Mew EX pretty quickly too if a simple Megalo Cannon + Laser Bank will KO a Mew EX, a Kyurem PLF can OHKO with a Blizzard Burn, a Mewtwo EX can OHKO with just a DCE and Darkrai EX can OHKO with a Night Spear + LaserBank and you can't OHKO any of them back because you need to get at least three Energies out at once and without any form of energy acceleration so you have effectively lost the last three turns of attachments (probably including a DCE as well) at once and no way to get them back.

    If you are using your Blends on Gothitelle then that is at least slightly more useful against Virizion EX but unless you are using Silver Mirror like someone suggested earlier then the opponent can just attack with Genesect EX anyway. And guess what if you are using Silver Mirrors you will need multiple to prevent a Red Signal + Tool Scrapper allowing the opponent to attack with Genesect EX the rest of the game anyway. Also if you want to be able to switch out of the active position you need to use Switch or Keldeo EX now because you have Silver Mirror attached rather than a Float Stone so that is even more room required now.

    Also you might want to check this statement. "If you run Prism/Blend, you can use, let's say, Megalo Cannon, and score a KO with it." Megalo Cannon doesn't OHKO any attacker in that deck other than Mewtwo EX (if they play it), Mr.Mime (not an attacker) and Tropius (why you would put in so much time and resources to get rid of this I have no idea).

    A brief note on the other idea suggested so far for countering VirGen:

    Victini EX + Victory Piece- YES I OHKO'D AN OPPOSING ATTACKER!..... they played a Tool Scrapper/ KO'd me with Genesect EX + Hypnotoxic Laser. I lost two Prizes and very soon the game, and yes I had to cut Town Map and the 2nd Duskull (for example) so unfortunately that also resulted in two later losses against Plasma that day.

    Celebi EX + Gothorita 76- I discarded an Energy.... yep my opponent runs 14 so he just attached another one... and yep I lost. Oh and I went 2-6 that day because I had to run two Blend Energies a Celebi EX and two of those Gothita in place of the Musharna line, a Tropical Beach and some Supporters so I couldn't set consistently the rest of the day.
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2013
    SamSoldier likes this.
  4. WolfusMandrago

    WolfusMandrago Squatting below parallel

    Thank you for your in-depth response, thematteo0.

    One thing that wasn't discussed was the addition of Great Ball in the first post. Seems like it would be a good pick in the mid-game to late-game to get Mew. Not sure if it really is practical though.

    Here is a funny thought: Combo Garbotoxin with Deck and Cover. It means Magic Room and Versatile get cancelled out so you would need to stream Accelgors for a soft lock. It's probably a terrible idea.

    If you're fortunate enough to have your opponent use Virbank, you're looking at 80 damage from one Deck and Cover.

    Switch isn't as common as it used to be. Escape Rope gets some play. If your opponent decides to scrapper the Garbotoxin, he has to consider that it toggles on all of your abilities.

  5. Wrags23

    Wrags23 Feeling... rogue.

    Garbodor/Gothitelle was actually a thing a while ago, believe it or not. I don't think it had much success, but I remember playing against it a few times. Interesting...
  6. KPiplup

    KPiplup An Imposter

    I highly doubt anyone played Garbodor with Gothitelle...
    Ziggmiceter likes this.
  7. Wrags23

    Wrags23 Feeling... rogue.

    Well, I saw it a few times last season. Like I said, it didn't really have any success, but there were people who played it. They mostly just chose between Gothitelle and Garbodor for each game, though.
  8. thematteo0

    thematteo0 The quintessentially British gentleman.

    This idea interests me actually and I might consider testing it out and seeing whether it works or not as it seems like an interesting way to improve the Virizion EX/Genesect EX match-up. My biggest problem would be a Tool Scrapper + Red Signal and KO on the Garbodor DRX as you wouldn't be able to set up another one (you probably only have room for a 1-1 line) and you would also get rid of two Float Stones at once (with the assumption that you have both Garbodor DRX and Gothitelle EPO with Float Stones on). With most VirGen decks probably running a Tool Scrapper this is still a reasonable possibility though. I wouldn't play more than a 1-1 line because it also blocks off important abilities such as Dusknoir and Musharna so it isn't great against anything else.
  9. KPiplup

    KPiplup An Imposter

    Gothitelle is a crazy inconsistent deck as it is.

    You are not going to be able to fix the Virizion/Genesect problem without wrecking other matchups. Period.

    It's honestly a meta call: If there's no Virizion, go for it. If there's Virizion, keep looking.
    Otaku likes this.
  10. Otaku

    Otaku Well-Known Member

    We are talking the Garbodor people actually run, right? The one with Garbotoxin? If it is shutting down Abilities, isn't it shutting down Abilities and thus Mew EX can only attack with Replace. X-Ball just needs the DCE already in the deck. So there is really only a very limited amount of uses for this trick; Abilities have to be functioning and copying an attack in play basically needs to win the game... and attack that can't be fueled by just a DCE.

    Otherwise for the overall deck, I've got to side with @KPiplup; if you expect Virizion EX to be more than a token or random part of the metagame, keep looking. This deck seems to fall into Quad Sigilyph territory; go to an event where most decks are unprepared and you can own. Encounter decks with just a few pieces of TecH that might not even be present to counter you, and at best you have a long, desperate struggle to eek out a win. Granted, I am watching from the side lines here, so feel free to "enlighten" me.
    Wrags23 likes this.
  11. areuter

    areuter Member

    Oops, sorry. Forgot about that.
  12. WolfusMandrago

    WolfusMandrago Squatting below parallel

    Mid to late game, streaming Accelgors isn't too difficult. It means you need a shelmet on the bench every turn though. Even without abilities, poison/paralysis is still a challenge to deal with.

    Many decks are running one copy of Switch, sometimes none. Float stone is the more popular card and it doesn't override Deck and Cover.

    Hurrah for more awkward Garbodor/Gothitelle.
  13. KPiplup

    KPiplup An Imposter

    Garbodor's "great" for that purpose until it gets KO'd by a Genesect or run into a list running Switch.
  14. SapphireBirch

    SapphireBirch BiriBiri~

    I went undefeated in swiss and got top 4 at cities with gothitelle/accelgor/garbodor. Stop being ignorant about things you probably didn't even try.
  15. KPiplup

    KPiplup An Imposter

    If you're calling me out for being ignorant and not trying it, then you'd be wrong. I put a good amount of time into trying to get Garbodor to work in here; it was simply a Tool Scrapper+Red Signal from being dead. I eventually decided it was, as I posted above, only worth playing if Virizion was absent. I played it for both my cities, T4/T2'ing them, and my swiss losses were to Virizion. It just wasn't worth trying to fix at the cost of consistency.

    Congrats on your success, but you have no right to call others ignorant on your single result.
    RisingDawn likes this.
  16. Otaku

    Otaku Well-Known Member

    You just gave me a single piece of data; the term "outlier" exists for a reason. There is an element of "luck" to this game, so if you are indeed a skilled player, and you designed the deck about as well as it can be built, a single Top 4 finish doesn't "prove" a deck has significant standings.

    The good news is that your ad hominem attack, while still a fallacious argument, has a little more merit against me; I am a guy who has to live on Theorymon due to a lack of play opportunities. The bad news is even guys like me have a solid rebuttal; your argument requires you never make a comment about any deck you've never run. I'll resist taking it to its furthest extremes and assume you meant decks that at least function... but that is still more than anyone should have time to adequately play test. After all, really testing a deck requires dozens, possibly hundreds of games with it.

    So congratulations on your win, but try to explain the reasons behind the win; if not for those you wish to convince than for yourself. The players that can win but can't really explain "why" tend to be the ones that don't last more than a season or two; if they don't understand why they are winning, it is very hard to replicate with an almost completely new card pool.
  17. SapphireBirch

    SapphireBirch BiriBiri~

    Garbodor isn't going to win you the matchup by itself. it gives you a chance to win a matchup that is literally an autoloss. I also play multiple silver bangle which is huge as it allows you to 2hko their ex's as long as you get 1 turn of poison. if they give you multiple turns of garbodor the better the matchup gets. of course you are fighting a losing battle but its a battle you can actually play. garbodor is also really good vs darkrai as it gives you time to get enough damage on board to KO a keldeo with dusknoir after garb has served its purpose(you can always scrapper your own garbodor). Garbodor can also just win you games if players don't respect garbodor's existence.(aka not playing scrapper)
  18. KPiplup

    KPiplup An Imposter

    Your logic makes plenty of sense on paper, yes, I agree. I definitely could see other benefits to it in my head while testing it. I also played Silver Bangle, and agree that it is about the only reason you can afford to attempt to prize trade with Virizion/Genesect anyway.

    My biggest issue with Garbodor was that it is removable from the field with a two card combo. While under Item lock that'd be decent odds, with free reign of trainers it's much easier to pull off. I agree that it's the only fighting chance you've got; I just question if it's truly worth two spaces for a tech that barely, if at all, turns Genesect into an even matchup. I didn't think it was; each to their own I suppose.
  19. WolfusMandrago

    WolfusMandrago Squatting below parallel

    Here is a decklist that includes Garbodor, for discussion. Tropical Beach isn't included but you can smoke 'em if you got 'em:

    Pokemon (22)
    4-1-3 Gothitelle (Gothita LTR 69, Gothorita BEC 76)

    2-0-2 Dusknoir
    3-3 Accelgor (Shelmet PLB 7)
    2 Mew EX
    1-1 Garbodor (Trubbish DEX)

    Trainers (34)
    4 Juniper
    4 N
    3 Skyla
    2 Colress

    4 Rare Candy
    4 Float Stone
    3 Level Ball
    2 Ultra Ball
    2 Silver Bangle
    1 Town Map
    1 Tool Scrapper
    1 Super Rod
    1 Dowsing Machine

    Energy (4)
    4 Double Colorless
  20. MetalArmedAngel

    MetalArmedAngel My lovely Luka ♥♥

    IMO if you vs a virizion deck, just flip the table and run