“I Object, Your Honor…” – Different Decks and Surprising Techs

Discussion in 'UG Article Talk' started by Kettler, Jun 4, 2013.

  1. Kettler

    Kettler Active Member

  2. JayHornung

    JayHornung Active Member

    The last minute teching bit is extremely good...its always either the best or worse choice you'll make.
  3. Nabeel

    Nabeel New Member

    This was a really thoughtful article, well written. Although for where we are in the season I could have used more on the "surprising techs" side of things - especially in light of your final advice. :)
  4. Crawdaunt

    Crawdaunt Active Member

    It's been too long since we've had a Kettler article! Great article and advice. Fun deck in Flareon, though I don't know if I really believe in it myself. I was also surprised to see the man with 17 draw outs in his Blastoise list, down to 14 in his Gothitelle list.

    Interesting proposal regarding Zoroark too. Not something I had considered until now, but definitely something I am considering as I prep some rogue deck ideas that I've been testing recently.
  5. Obro

    Obro New Member

    Great thoughts on the final tweaks for nationals. A lot of it really reflects what is going through my head, here the last few days before our nationals.
    I'm pretty sure I know what deck I will go with, and it's super-consistent at the moment. I've found room for 2 techs spots, but there's 5 different cards I want for them, so testing the gain for a specific matchup, and then consider whether or not it is worth the decrease of gain against the rest of the field is really important.

    I also thought about Zoroark being great in this format.
    In theory it kinda have something against most decks:
    TDK -> OHKO kyurem with laser/deoxys
    Blastoise -> OHKO Black Kyurem EX losing only DCE or whatever energy you have.
    Landorus variants -> OHKO landorus with laser, and possibly only have to discard 1 fighting.
    Klinklang -> Use their better attacks using only DCE. Just good in itself :p

    I tested it both with Deoxys/Plasma Badge, and in some Garbodor variants, but I never really felt like it could respond good enough to the main matchups.
    Would love to see someone making it work during nationals :)
  6. airhawk06

    airhawk06 Active Member

    I'm very excited to see Kettler back! I do have a couple questions:

    1) Why not play a copy of Leafeon PLF? It seems like a great alternative attacker and it hits a relevant deck for weakness. It seems like two copies of Leafeon would turn that match up into a near auto-win. Then, if nothing else, you can simply discard it to add damage to Flareon.

    2) Have you tried just playing a 1-1 Electrode and adding in a 1-0-1 Dusknoir? I like the idea of electrode, but Dusknoir is just so crucial to the deck, IMO.
  7. kgenthe

    kgenthe Member


    I think the Electrode route without Dusknoir should set up faster, thus you win by taking EX prizes will they take non-ex prizes. Playing with Dusknoir is entirely different, as you aim for a perfect lock as your route to victory. Playing with Dusknoir means your usually further behind, can't as easily discard everything in your hand, and often have a hand full of 5-7 cards, thus Musharna is better.

    Or maybe I'm off, haha.

    In any case, this was a very refreshing article. It's nice to read about the non-obvious cards and potentially good cards no one else is talking about. +1 as always.
  8. JayHornung

    JayHornung Active Member

    It should be noted that Stefan Tabaco won 2 BRs in a row in Cali with Electrode.
    kgenthe likes this.
  9. airhawk06

    airhawk06 Active Member

    Also, exactly how important is Deoxys in Flareon? By putting him on your bench, you are creating the opportunity for your opponent to just take out 2 EXs if you use 6 feet under twice. Why not take out the Deoxys in favor of other Pokemon, because ultimately discarding another Pokemon has the exact same effect on Vengeance as benching Deoxys.
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2013
    Adam likes this.
  10. JayHornung

    JayHornung Active Member

    Isn't Dexoys kind of both though??? He can either act as a Pokemon you can discard or bench if you don't have away to discard him...really sad Empoleon isn't a stage 1 or something with a similar effect.
  11. airhawk06

    airhawk06 Active Member

    Good point. My desire to keep the deck from playing EXs might be clouding my judgement.
  12. Kettler

    Kettler Active Member

    Jay: Thanks!

    Nabeel: Also thanks. Regarding the surprising techs, I felt a bit disappointed to see that the previous two articles dealt with Accelgor in-depth, but I had to give it some love. It is my favorite deck this (and last) format, after all!

    Crawdaunt: The reason why my Gothitelle runs a lower draw count is because I have a 2-2 Electrode line to "crutch" my consistency. If Electrode is not your thing, then you could easily turn those into four more draw spots, and voila -- back to my old standard, lol.

    Obro: I think for a Zoroark concept to be successful, it needs to be able to handle situations where the opposing Pokemon just isn't that good of an attacker. Not sure how to do that yet, but I'm certainly thinking lol.

    Airhawk: Like I said on HeyTrainer, Leafeon is a very good choice -- one I'm surprised I overlooked. 2) Possible, but at that point I'd rather just do the 2-1 thing I'm doing in the Musharna build.

    Kgenthe: Thanks! Jay #2: Was that with Accelgor?

    Airhawk #2: It's not "essential," but overall a great card to have. In many situations, you just can't achieve any more discards, but by having Deoxys EX,, you can put yourself over the top. For example, say you have twelve Pokemon in the discard after using Juniper. You then hit two Pokemon in the hand, alongside an Ultra Ball. Without Deoxys, you have to hope you have a status effect on Flareon in order to get up to 170 to KO many EX's (grab an Audino). But with Deoxys, you're guaranteed that KO every time. Like Jay #3 said, it's basically as good as a discard, even when you can't hit it.

    Speaking of which, here's a really weird build I just now threw together, and so far so good:

    Pokemon (30):

    4 Ditto
    3 Audino
    4-4 Flareon
    2 Leafeon
    1 Umbreon
    2 Glaceon
    1 espeon
    3 Deoxys
    4 Mew EX
    2 Exeggcute

    Trainers (26)
    4 Ultra Ball
    4 Juniper
    4 N
    3 Skyla
    3 Revive
    3 Colress
    1 Computer Search
    4 Recycle

    Energy (4):
    4 DCE

    My biggest problem with the deck has been DCE. Whether I've whiffed it early, or been starved of it late, that is the one issue that's been the heart of most of my losses. As a result, I decided to take the Recycles used in the Life Dew idea, but just replace Life Dew for consistency. Also, I'm now using Revives for a much easier recycle of Eevees late game. Mew EX is just a starter filler so you don't get stuck with Deoxys, Exeggcute, or Audino.

    The high Eeveelution count helps in many ways. For starters, the two Leafeon Plasma (as recommended by Airhawk and Aaron Curry) are a good source for early attacking. The rest are just utility cards, with Glaceon being the best among them.

    This beta build will auto-lose to Snorlax, and it may seem like a paradox to play "less" energy to combat DCE whiffs/discards, but when you think of every two Recycles as a free DCE, it gets a lot better.

    P.S. I may ultimately opt for Dowsing over Comp Search, as that guarantees me one more shot at DCE.
    Adam and airhawk06 like this.
  13. Crawdaunt

    Crawdaunt Active Member

    Kettler, I was referring to your second list of "standard" Gothitelle :p 4 Juniper, 4 N, 3 Colress, 2 Skyla, 1 Beach. 1 Dowsing if you want.

    Your Electrode list actually runs 15 Draw outs. More than your standard list.
  14. tokyovampire

    tokyovampire Starpower!

    Have you had any problems only running 1 Beach on Accelgor at all. I have been playing 3 in my list and it has been very consistent, but I could see dropping down to 2. I was just wondering if 1 Beach has been worth it in your testing.
  15. Kettler

    Kettler Active Member

    Re Crawdaunt: True! :D

    Re Tokyovampire: I haven't had too many issues, but I think two is actually ideal just so you never prize it (three-four is too many because it begins to get redundant and wasteful, especially late game).

    And as an update on the list, I went 5-1 at today's Battle Road in Houston, nabbing fourth place. My only loss was again to a list heavily prepared for Accelgor: Steve Lewis's daughter using Darkrai with two Keldeo (although to be fair, she had the win regardless of the second Keldeo -- I had a poorly shuffled opening hand due to barely making it on time, lol). My wins were against a theme deck, two Plasma, a Landorus EX/Cobalion EX/Garbodor, and another Darkrai.

    So for tournament play, I am:

    2-2 Darkrai
    1-1 Eels
    2-0 Plasma
    1-0 Landy/Cobi/Garbo
    1-0 theme deck.dec
    1-0 Block-Lax
    1-0 Klinklang
  16. FlareStarfire

    FlareStarfire Front Page Contributor

    Wow... not bad at all. But also surprising: No blastoise matches at all :O
  17. airhawk06

    airhawk06 Active Member

    I kinda feel like Stoise is being written off by quite a few players prematurely. I would not be surprised if it performed at nats.
  18. Crawdaunt

    Crawdaunt Active Member

    I can say it's similar in the NW. Blastoise has dropped off the radar of most competitive players. Not sure if that opens the door for Blastoise to sweep through though. I think people have dropped the 'Stoise because of the maintenance required.
  19. JayHornung

    JayHornung Active Member

    Consistency plays into Blastoises ability to sweep
  20. Kettler

    Kettler Active Member

    Blastoise can't function properly without at least 1-2 Beaches. Since these are low-scale events, accessing beach isn't a very serious thing for most people, and of those who do have them, they're much more interested in Plasma and Darkrai. Had I played against Blastoise though, I would've really liked my odds due to the heavy emphasis I put on Accelgor itself attacking. Basically, unless they get out two Blastoise before I get out a single Gothitelle, all it'll take to win in most instances is just a Catcher-two-shot on it (Catcher #1 to swing 110; Catcher #2/Dowsing to finish it off).

    Either that or N late. Does wonders when you're swinging for 100.