I Play the Game and Not the Numbers

Discussion in 'UG Article Talk' started by JayHornung, Dec 6, 2012.

  1. JayHornung

    JayHornung Active Member

    This is the thread for discussing the following article:

    I Play the Game and Not the Numbers

    Post your comments and questions below! Any and all honest feedback is much appreciated.
  2. airhawk06

    airhawk06 Active Member

    That's a great article. I honestly think this is one of the better articles we have had in a while.

    I loved the alternative look at analyzing results. I think both ways are extremely helpful. For certain when you get to cities, there will by a local meta and national results don't really help you with that. But by the time Regionals role around, our data set should be large enough and of the right locations to be useful.

    I also have been waiting on a "playstyles" of the best feature for a long time. I really think this does two things: 1) gives insight, obviously, 2) grows the player base through reputation. It gives new players a goal, to be mentioned in the same sentence as X.

    Great work at cities, too.

    Just FYI, there is a video here of Brit's Klinklang in action against my Ho-oh. The first two games are really good, and the last one was not so hot. I'm pretty sure he ran Terrakion EX, Terrakion, Keldeo EX, Darkrai EX, Sigilyph, Klinklang. (PS: I'm sure there a several mistakes in the later games on my part. the video is from my perspective)
  3. Charranitar

    Charranitar Well-Known Member

    The interesting thing about Klinklang right now is that there are a bunch of different variations of it. I don't want to give out my friends techs or lists, but John's version is a lot different from Brit's, which are both different from the version that did well at Asian regionals. All very different, but all very good. And Gear Grind isn't that bad of an attack. I know John used Gear Grind and Smash Turn (with the basic Klink) a whole bunch when he played against my Quad Sigilyph deck. Not the best attacks ever, but the potential 160 from gear grind is still a ton of damage.

    Overall great article. I think looking at what other players think is good is very important to making smart meta decisions yourself. I know I look to what Brit, John, and Curtis Lyon are playing when choosing and building my decks.

    The team part is really important. I know I've had a lot more success this year thanks to the help of player's much better than myself. I think you nailed the main point though, at the end of the day you need to prove yourself and contribute good ideas yourself. Too often I see people just trying to leech for lists, instead of building stuff themselves or helping to collaborate to get a deck to its top level, and just trying to take someone else's list and say, cool got what I need, good bye.

    It's important to understand that players with different playstyles can really help you better your decks. For example, I had my Quad Sigilyph deck built with just Mewtwo as my non-ex counter. John mentioned Cresselia EX as a possible inclusion in the deck, and the reasoning was really solid, and I can say I wouldn't have done as well as I did without Cresselia (getting paired against bad matchups like Garchomp and Excadrill, and being able to win both many he's thanks to Cresselia).
  4. Crawdaunt

    Crawdaunt Active Member

    Jay, I love your articles because you're one of the only writers on 6P that's really not afraid to speak his mind. I think this article was exactly the kind of article the UG needed as a sort of "kick in the rear" to get people thinking on an individual level rather than an international level. I know my local tournaments are never so small as to only have 40 people, so I often have to think about the metagame at large because you'll see a fairly equal proportion of players playing the top tier decks.

    It was quite a shock last week playing back-to-back tournaments in Washington. The first day saw three Blastoise/Keldeo, 2 Landorus/Mewtwo and 2 MewtwoEels decks make top cut (can't recall the 8th deck), with a Landorus/Mewtwo winning the day. The second day about an hour away, the metagame was composed of mostly Darkrai and Eelektrik.

    I could not fathom how people looked at the first day and said "Landorus/Mewtwo won, better play RayEels!" But it's also worth noting that analyses like the ones you can make from pokegym etc... can be turned upon their ear by local variation.
  5. Squeaky

    Squeaky Member

    Great Article Jay I really like how you go over not to look at what's winning but who is winning and where.

    But, with this new quad sigilyph dech winning a regionals do you think these big ex decks have a chance if this deck shows up in the US?
  6. jbcheshire

    jbcheshire Member

    Quad sigilyph can be beat by the big basics mainly because those players that play against it have the experience and usually the necessary techs in their decks to handle it. The biggest problem with the sigilyph is that it doesn't deal enough damage on its own to take down the big basics without 3-shotting them most of the time, which by then the opponent has been able to get the necessary counter in place to handle it.
  7. Crawdaunt

    Crawdaunt Active Member

    Yeah, but if a deck is only running Bouffalant or Terrakion as it's non-EX attacker, having to take down 4 Sigilyphs may prove exceedingly difficult. Terrakion certainly does a better job (being able to one-shot with Land Crush), but getting it to that point might be difficult. And Bouffalant can't 1HKO Sigilyph so any arguments regarding eviolite/potion swing both ways in discussing the XHKO. I can definitely see Quad Sigilyph being a scary deck to face with a lot of top-tier threats. But Blastoise and Hydreigon definitely have easy answers. I think Eels would probably be able to just Electric Ball it as well...
    Marking22 likes this.
  8. JayHornung

    JayHornung Active Member

    Airhawk: IDK I felt with the last Regionals Darkrai EX/Terrakion was popular but at Regionals it was HUGE far more than was represented with BR showings. I agree we'll probably have an idea of a meta...but no I don't think we could get close on % wise. JMHO

    Playstyle is so huge...and easier to look at now with so many videos flying around. Its overall easier for players to associate themselves with somebody.

    Andrew I'll disagree...I NEVER like an attack thats a flip the straight shot 140 from Hydregion is considerably better. Yea I really tried to hit that nail on the head to, everybody I talk lists with always pulls their own weight and I constantly feel like I have to keep up.

    John is exactly the type of player to talk to about anything antimeta.

    Crawdaunt: I think thats partially due to the fact that a majority of the player base doesn't put that much thought into it. You look hard at what other people are playing, but the simple truth is most players are simply worried about themselves and their own deck.

    Marking: Personally, I would NEVER touch a deck where I lose to half the format. You basically lose to any deck that runs 2 non EX Pokemon...and on top of that the deck is slow so you can't even "steal" wins from decks like Darkrai EX/Hydregion which destroy you once you get set up. If Siglyph had a better attack or was honestly just a better Pokemon in general the deck would be a lot more playable.

    Jb: Basically my thoughts

    Crawdaunt: Yea I agree and if I pick up Mewtwo EX/Landorus EX again I'll probably have to play 2 Terrakion, but it doesn't hurt my consistency. Once again though I agree with you have strong match ups against 2/3 deck but bad match ups against the rest. Even the favorable matches up you can still lose if they go fast enough.
  9. daGlaceon

    daGlaceon Still Can't See

    Thoughts on Zimmerman's list (or a similar one) vs Hammertime?
  10. JayHornung

    JayHornung Active Member

    Be more specific...straight Darkrai/Hammer, Darkrai/Terrakion/Hammers, etc.
  11. daGlaceon

    daGlaceon Still Can't See

    Vs Darkrai Terrakion Hammers, sorry.
  12. kazambolt

    kazambolt Meh.

    One comment, Dustin played Darkrai/Landorus/Hammers at Fort Wayne Indiana, not the Big Basics deck. Otherwise, I really loved the article. Hoping to see more man!
  13. JayHornung

    JayHornung Active Member

    DaGlaceon: I think its slight favorable...Darkrai/Terrakion has a really hard time dealing with even 1 Landorus EX.
  14. davjoemama

    davjoemama New Member

    Great read as always. It seems with kyles list you got pretty close, but he posted his top8 match from the cities he won and he was playing Tornadus EX and Landorus EX and also 3 Ho-Oh. One other thing I noticed in true kyle fashion he was playing 0 Skyla
  15. arcanyx

    arcanyx The #1 Procrastinator

    I like how the article touched on the 'social' aspects of the game. With videos of matches all over YouTube plus the magnitude of information we're getting on what won where and such, I find it very timely and spot on to talk about the players' perspective instead of just the numbers behind it. Statistics can forecast, but the improbability of occurrences still leaves a chance of inaccuracies in reaching conclusions which only our belief system can attain.

    I really enjoyed this article Jay. I'd like to ask, what would be the future impact of certain EXes in this format? We have just seen the resurgence of Tornadus EX due to the new Fighting decks. Even Ho-oh has found some love again. In your thoughts would there be any other forgotten EX which could come back into the limelight? And with that, any other non-common archetypes which could benefit from it?

    Final thoughts: what would be your overall BDIF right now?

    Thanks for the awesome article.
  16. kazambolt

    kazambolt Meh.

    He says under the Tornadus/Landorus deck that he thinks it is the BDIF.
  17. arcanyx

    arcanyx The #1 Procrastinator

    Sorry, I think I should have been more clearer on that.

    I meant what variant of it, whether it be with prize denial with healing and Aspertia or with SSU, or perhaps full aggro with Pluspowers? There's been so many different approaches to the deck that I find myself switching back and forth among them. For Regionals I settled with a hybrid Potion+Pluspower build that didn't go down so well, unfortunately.
  18. JayHornung

    JayHornung Active Member

    Arcanyx: Aspertia is a stable...but i hate the flip of SSU. 4 Plus Powers also seem to be stable imo. The deck seems really tight on space IMO.
  19. Parenting101

    Parenting101 Active Member

    Thank you JayHornung for this timely article. I had been fighting with myself on what deck to play at the Cities this weekend. After reading your article and watching your videos, I decided to try a version of your LandorusEX/MewtwoEX deck. I only have 3 LandorusEX, so I made the last minute decision to run Durant DRX as my 8th Pokemon which shocked quite a few seasoned players. :)

    I ended up making only my 2nd Top Cut and placed 3rd out of 40 masters! I lost to DarkraiEX/Terrakion/Sableye in Top 4. Darn Gold Potion and Potion!:(

    Thanks again for this great article, I find that I really gain a lot of insight after reading your articles.
    Adam likes this.
  20. JayHornung

    JayHornung Active Member

    Thanks Parenting, I'm glad you got a lot out of it. The deck isn't as well rounded as I like, but its one of the most consistent decks in the format.