Megalo Canon: Cradily

Discussion in 'Pokemon TCG News & Gossip' started by baby_mario, May 13, 2013.

  1. baby_mario

    baby_mario Doesn't even care

    NOTE: This thread was NOT started by me. The original post was moved to Deck Help and the rest of the thread left here for some weird reason.


    Cradily's attack let's you play Stage 2's on your Bench as if they were Basics. We've seen something similar before

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    I'm not convinced about the viability of Cradily Toolbox. Stage 2 Fossils are not the easiest thing to get into play and load up with Energy. Even if Catcher is rotated out, there will still be Genesect-EX.
    Last edited: May 13, 2013
  2. Otaku

    Otaku Well-Known Member

    Pretty much.

    It isn't just the presence of Pokémon Catcher, either; Cradily Evolves from a Revived Pokémon, so in addition to the Stage 2 Pokémon you want to skip, you still need to make room for Basic Pokémon to have a legal deck (and unless you make room for like 12 you are still going to have a mulligan prone deck). All this before looking at whatever other "support" a Stage 2 Pokémon might warrant, like specific Energy. As Professor Juniper looks to still be the driving draw power of the game, that too makes having this kind of deck more challenging.
  3. InfinityMinusOne

    InfinityMinusOne Has a tendency to exist

    I've enjoyed and toyed with the concept of Cradily from the beginning, and although it probably won't ever have any real credibility as a competitive deck, I still find it to be incredibly fun and something I might play for Fall Battle Roads or something of the like.

    Although there are a thousand and one different ways to play this deck, the idea I like the most is some concoction of Vileplume combined with several low-energy attackers that, with possibly Pluspower, Hypnotoxic Laser, or even Silver Bangle, can effectively OHKO the format. Assuming that the three biggest decks as of the next format will be TDK, Virizion/Genesect, and Blastdeo, the most ideal attackers for such a Cradily deck would be:
    • Bellossom BCR (for Keldeo/Blastoise)
    • Chandelure NXD 20 (very good against Virizion/Genesect and the occasional rogue Plasmaklang)
    • And my personal favorite, Haxorus MGC. It's first attack, for [M], does 40 times the number of Metal Energy attached to it (taking care of Black Kyurem EX PLS and Rayquaza EX with the help of a Pluspower/Hypnotoxic/Silver Bangle), and it's second attack, for [M][F], OHKO's any Plasma Pokemon, providing a very potent, yet glass, cannon against TDK.
    Other Stage 2's that I have considered, but decided not to add in, include Beautifly DRX, Empoleon DRX, and several others, but they all fell by the wayside as they would take up too much space (which is a bigger concern in a Cradily deck than most others). Of course, there are a multitude of problems with this deck and it's matchups, namely Darkrai (might have to add in Landorus for that matchup), Kyurem PLF, Lugia EX, etc.. Any deck that runs Cradily will have a ton of holes in it (I'd like to see a consistent build that can find the room for the 10+ cards needed for it), but is fun to play nonetheless. The most difficulty I have with it right now is simply finding a Basic to run. The first attackers that come to mind are Landorus EX, Cobalion EX (both of which can attack for one energy and have potential to deal massive damage to cards that this deck can't counter otherwise, such as Kyurem PLF and Darkrai-based decks), and even Victini EX, which can help with the setup process.

    This is all pure theorymon at this point, so there's a good chance that a lot of what I said probably won't be the case in testing :p. Another thing that might change how this deck flows is the strict translation of Life Explosion and how that will be interpreted by the metagame, specifically for Prism Energy, assuming it isn't rotated. If Cradily's attack reads "play the Stage 2(s) as Basic Pokemon", would the Stage 2's be able to abuse Prism Energy, or not? If not, then the energy lines for a deck like the one I mentioned above would be incredibly messy. If so, then I could easily see a list with 5-6 Grass, a couple DCE (for Cradily), and 4 Prism with a couple other Basic Energy. Thoughts?
  4. 765Bro

    765Bro Hibiki...~

    Cradily isn't
    Megalo Cannon gives us Caitlin, though. There's no reason not to run Caitlin in this deck.
    coolestman22 likes this.
  5. Otaku

    Otaku Well-Known Member

    Caitlin isn't all that great. I mean, I certainly would run her to support the Restored Pokémon mechanic, but even there she is a bit underwhelming.
  6. 765Bro

    765Bro Hibiki...~

    More reliable than N for a lot of decks. I'm thinking Lugia-EX especially.
  7. MaverickNate

    MaverickNate Active Member

    The rulings have changed since the time of Garchomp LV.X. Cradily puts these Stage 2's on your Bench as unevolved Pokémon. Things like Prism and Skyarrow Bridge won't work with them because they aren't considered Basics.

    Just pointing this out for clarity's sake, so that people don't get the wrong impression.
    InfinityMinusOne and baby_mario like this.
  8. Otaku

    Otaku Well-Known Member

    Untrue. The variability is just coming from a different source. N is dependent on Prize count. Caitlin is dependent on how many cards you can spare. Caitlin requires you have a large but unneeded hand, so until you've taken a few Prizes, unless you are very scared to help your opponent or trying to set-up for the Restored mechanic, N would seem more reliable.
  9. 765Bro

    765Bro Hibiki...~

    I was talking about the usefulness of Caitlin over N in Lugia-EX decks, not Cradily. I'm unsure of Cradily as of yet.
  10. Otaku

    Otaku Well-Known Member

    765Bro

    That is really specific, and still not something I believe to be true. Why is it so much better for Lugia EX decks? Explaining statements is really helpful. ;-)
  11. 765Bro

    765Bro Hibiki...~

    Sorry, I would've thought it was obvious! Taking (Ideally) three prizes right away, your N's are dead. Caitlin is invaluable consistent draw support combined with Cheren and Bicycle in that deck.
  12. InfinityMinusOne

    InfinityMinusOne Has a tendency to exist

    Thanks for the clarification, too bad they aren't played as Basics that can use Prism :(.

    On the topic of Caitlyn, it's a card that definitely synergizes with this deck (at least in my opinion), seeing as it helps to maximize the probability of getting a Lileep on the bottom of the deck while also providing at least some Draw Support. It certainly warrants a slot in Cradily decks, but I'm not entirely certain whether it should be included as a 4-of or just a 2-3-of.
  13. Otaku

    Otaku Well-Known Member

    So you are talking about the less played "Lugia EX donk" deck, as opposed to the more prominent "Lugia EX Closer" deck (boring but adequately descriptive names)? It was obvious, except it is also very, very specific... and I still question its accuracy. Sorry this is going to run on long, but since it looks like you are saying what you think you are saying, I have concerns and questions about the reasoning behind why "this" is supposed to be so good.

    As you just admitted, even for Lugia EX donk decks, you are worried about an ideal opening; getting the kind of FTKOing a Pokémon-EX. Even if you take a quick two Prizes against a smaller non-Pokémon-EX, N performs no worse than it does in many decks that use it successfully (and quickly KO Pokémon-EX to take two Prizes quickly). You will have two or three turns shuffling and drawing either six or four cards... and for better or worse (usually better in my experience) messing up your opponent's hand. Past that window, most successful decks are also going to have taken two or three Prizes for similar yields.

    If the deck isn't trying to attack with only Lugia EX, then N performs better than it does in most decks. Why? You the game will be more likely to end before you are forced to use N to draw less than three or four cards; you are trying to take a quick three (if you must, four) Prizes against your opponent, then take a Pokémon-EX down in one hit for game.

    There is also the matter of Caitlin itself; the combos you describe don't work guaranteed. Why is Caitlin a good match for Bicycle? Isn't the draw from Caitlin mandatory? It is good you can bottom deck cards that aren't immediately useful, but unless you draw something that can be immediately used in their place, you are not going to end up with a smaller hand. If the draw is optional... you just burned a Supporter to shrink your hand and stack the bottom of your deck, just to try and draw cards with Bicycle. o_O Only if stacking the bottom of your deck is important or your deck absolutely cannot afford to discard or shuffle cards back in does that lead to even a small advantage preferable to the usual draw power.

    Caitlin is not consistent draw; it is dependent entirely upon how many cards you can spare. Your deck has to have a lot it doesn't need at the moment already in hand for it to be a good source of draw power. This makes Cheren an odd partner unless you are very, very concerned with stacking the bottom of your deck or not shuffling. If this supposed to be an Ether/Pokédex kind of thing? Caitlin otherwise benefits most from decks that can draw into large hands, which is probably going to require more than just Supporters. Getting back to the Lugia EX focused decks for a minute, if you are shooting for a donk then you are probably playing out almost your entire hand, meaning Caitlin won't do you much good next turn even having added three cards from your Prizes to bulk up the remains.

    Now the above is pure Theorymon; I am looking at cards and applying what I know of the game. If you are testing this and your testing is proving me wrong, I'd like to hear more about it (either here or in a PM, whatever you prefer), and of course if there is a flaw in my reasoning, please point it out and be patient while I assimilate it. ^^.
  14. 765Bro

    765Bro Hibiki...~

    Any deck that features Lugia-EX as the main prize drawer. If you have supporter attackers to soften them up, fine, but a one-of Lugia-EX doesn't make it applicable to this discussion.

    The idea is not that Caitlin is the top supporter in the deck, but is preferable to N-- especially when used in conjuction with Cheren and Juniper. Sorry, I have no idea why I said Bicycle.

    The only reason I say Cheren is a good partner is a real lack of anything else. If you can draw into Caitlin for next turn with Cheren, you're good. Otherwise, it's just superior to Colress considering the few benchsitters Lugia-EX should have and can build a larger hand for next turn's Caitlin.

    Nope, I can't really test it. Personally, I can't or wouldn't test anything until it's officially released- me having access to Caitlin in a match while my opponent is stuck in Plasma Freeze just isn't reliable testing. If he keeps Ning me into smaller hands after I try and pull that Cheren + Caitlin combo, isn't it arguable he might not have run as many N if he had access to ____ himself or herself?
  15. Otaku

    Otaku Well-Known Member

    765Bro

    This was a thread about Cradily, which as a reminder we were discussing when you brought up Caitlin, stating there was no reason not to run it in a Cradily deck. I am not sure if there is truly "no reason", but there is definitely good reason to use it in a Cradily deck given the likelihood of comboing with Lileep and the appropriate Fossil card. I still find Caitlin underwhelming, but if you are focusing on using a mechanic that benefits from stacking the bottom of your deck, it does makes sense to use Caitlin, and that is what I stated.

    Then you claimed Caitlin was

    You haven't adequately supported this claim that Caitlin is all that reliable, let alone more reliable than N. To get a definition of what you meant by a "Lugia EX deck" I kind of had to drag it out of you. =P Even with your definition, though, I analyzed the situation and gave what I believe to be a compelling argument for why Caitlin is not clearly more reliable for such a deck than N.

    A deck built to attack primarily with Lugia EX has to donk a Pokémon-EX to make N "unreliable", though in reality it isn't a matter of reliability but of giving N a low yield. Now while I agree, N is not the best choice for a such a deck, which is likely burning through its hand quite rapidly given the amount of set-up required, Caitlin is likely to be a worse choice. You want to be able to burn your hand and then draw more cards, not attempt to improve the quality of your cards in hand by shrinking your overall hand size by one card. Such a deck probably should be focused on Professor Juniper, Bianca, Cheren, and Bicycle for its drawing needs.

    I also question your assertion that Lugia EX, as a deck, would lack Bench-sitters. You are telling me you are trying to donk an opponent's Pokémon using what, PlusPower? Deoxys EX is what Lugia EX has been waiting for; I know you know how Deoxys EX works, so in a deck where you can run four Team Plasma Ball and four Deoxys EX, as well as play out your hand quickly for cards like Professor Juniper, Bianca, and Bicycle, it seems a good fit. I probably still would avoid Colress, but only because if my opponent fills his or her Bench, the deck is already in danger of failing and I should be doing everything I can to make Colress a bad card for myself to run.

    As for why you haven't tested it, I am not saying "test or shut up", as I fear you understood it. I am saying "Hey, if you are testing and my Theorymon is way off, let me know so that I will shut up." ;-) As for your question about your opponent avoiding N... N is a great card. People play it because it may very well be overpowered. The best argument for why it N is "bad" according to you is a perfect opening with a Lugia EX donk deck that apparently was able to FTKO an opponent's Pokémon-EX (I guess they opened with Mew EX or something) and if your opponent doesn't use N first turn and then has to use it second turn... yeah that would be bad.

    TL;DR: Caitlin seems bad as it results in a net loss of cards with no guarantee it will improve quality, in a format where the alternatives that see play draw you stable amounts of cards (Cheren) even if it is at a price (Professor Juniper), or start out drawing you a good amount while forcing your opponent to do the same, that becomes more powerful the worse you are doing (...N). I can see using Caitlin with Cradily due to properties inherent to that deck, but not in place of N.
  16. 765Bro

    765Bro Hibiki...~

    No no, I am theorymonning myself and not nessecarily certain in my prediction. But if I argued it anymore, I'd be arguing it for Lugia-EX and not Cradily and further derailing the thread, so I'll concede. At the least, Caitlin can be run in small amounts to N like Colress to Cheren, can't it? I just see lots of potential as an optional one-of and making clutch plays to keep your Rare Candy and get the Stage 2.

    Oh well. We'll see.
  17. cabd

    cabd Taking over for Tamoo as the girly looking mod.

    THIS is why Caitlyn will be good outside fossil decks. It'll still only be a four-of inside fossil decks IMO though.
  18. Otaku

    Otaku Well-Known Member

    I guess my real question is "Will that be good enough?"
    765Bro likes this.
  19. 765Bro

    765Bro Hibiki...~

    This is my concern as well and why I remain a bit guarded on the issue. I wonder if Skyla would just be superior and if Caitlin warrants any other use.

    Even so, it's definitely got potential and I'd definitely say it's better in theory than Ghetsis ever was.
    Otaku likes this.
  20. Otaku

    Otaku Well-Known Member

    Hmm... that may be true. Ghetsis really needs to be run for the disruption, not the draw, and this format doesn't have much room for that.

    Actually, in theory Ghetsis is broken, because "in theory" you can actually hit five Items in your opponent's hand. ;-)

    Kidding aside, Ghetsis is one of those cards that just by existing, can alter how one plays the game. It was already annoying knowing that the useful Items you were saving back in your hand could be shuffled away by N, but knowing that it could happen in a manner where you aren't getting a shot at drawing any of them back while each that was hit allows your opponent to draw more? Conservative Item usage allows Ghetsis to live up to a fraction of its hype (instead of none of it).

    Caitlin, on the other hand, really is of the order of Cheren and Bianca; good but possibly not "good enough". Ghetsis bounces between "bad", "great", or "strategically significant" in a way Caitlin isn't; besides being better for setting up combos you can't space out, Caitlin lacks the "others fear me even if I am not heavily run" factor.