My 100 CP Cities Lists

Discussion in 'UG Article Talk' started by DylanLefavour, Jan 15, 2013.

  1. DylanLefavour

    DylanLefavour Member

    This is the thread for discussing the following article:

    My 100 CP Cities Lists

    Post your comments and questions below! Any and all honest feedback is much appreciated.
  2. RobGAJP

    RobGAJP New Member

    Very good article Dylan, nice job. I made 3 tops in 5 cities with a similar list of your Tornadus/Landorus 2.0 version ... I ran a Terrakion + a Buffalo as I saw in the field a few Sigilyph - heavy decks .. I think that running only 1 buffalo and no super rod makes your version an almost auto-loss to Sigilyphs ... like every other list I understand adding cards for specific matchups decreases consistency and in this deck's case speed .. but for a big tourny like regionals it's probably worth having a fighting chance against any deck , and not have 2 "bad" matchups instead of one .. appreciate your comments.
  3. TechnoLegend

    TechnoLegend Active Member

    Thanks for such a great read, and providing some really consistent deck lists, giving us some insight on how to play against very refined deck lists.

    If i wanted to go hammertime with Mewtwo EX instead of Terrakion NVI, should i try to include 2-3 PlusPower?and what is my best option to counter Sigliph? Bouffalant? or a Dark Claw on a Sableye?

    im thinking, what else could i drop for 1-2 more pluspower? i think Pluspower can really help against other mewtwo EX, and other things that have 130hp or 150hp

    -2 terrakion
    -1 energy search
    -1 energy switch
    -4 fighting

    +4 DCE
    +3 Mewtwo EX
    +1 pluspower
  4. rayc591

    rayc591 Member

    Good job my friend! I actually read the whole thing! :D
    DylanLefavour likes this.
  5. DylanLefavour

    DylanLefavour Member

    I feel like that one plus power could be hard to get when you need it. Energy switch can do plus powers job and mew two is likely to get knocked out regardless of how many energy are on it personally I would avoid a single plus powered. For this reason, I would never play any less than 4 energy switch even with 4 DCE.

    Dark claw on sableye isn't something I like. Typically, you need to hammer all your opponent's energy away for this to be effective anyway. In then time that takes, I'd rather set up terrakion in my case, or something like Buffalo in your case. But over all, there isn't a huge difference between the two, and dark claw gives you more options against other decks. It doesn't really matter how you kill them when they are helpless, but you have to focus on making them helpless with hammers first.
  6. DylanLefavour

    DylanLefavour Member

    Even with super rod, I still feel like this would be a bad matchup. In my opinion, this is probably your hardest matchup, but because there will be so many keldeo decks, i think that is your "worst" matchup. I think then only way to help it is a terrakion, but I still don't think 2 pokemon can realistically take on 6 sygilith.

    It may just be my methods. I'm one to cut my loses if I know I'm likely to lose. I do recommend terrakion if you want a plan other than "hope you don't lose".
  7. DylanLefavour

    DylanLefavour Member

    One other thing.

    I want to ask what people think of my writing style as far as understanding goes. Normally I write in a very wordy voice. Also if you notice any errors, let me know so I can make changes. I had a lot of issues with this article structurally but I think I'm starting to get a better idea of what six prizes is looking for now.
  8. airhawk06

    airhawk06 Active Member

    Nice read, and I certainly cannot argue with the results! Great work.

    I do however disagree with only playing 2 Ultra Ball in Tornadus/Landorus/Mewtwo.dec for a few reasons:

    1) With only two balls and a Computer Search, you are mostly at the mercy of the draw. Now, you might be able to bluff your way through a few games like this, but eventually I would assume people at a large tourney would figure this out and do stuff like initiate a Mewtwo war while you are in an unfavorable position, because they know you have relatively low odds of getting that second Mewtwo out.

    2) Playing such a low combined number of Pokemon and search cards opens you up to a bench out once or twice during a large tournament, a bench out you would normally avoid.

    3) In my opinion, one of the largest threats to Tornadus/Lando/Mewtwo is a mid- or late-game N. The best way to mitigate against N is to thin your deck. The best way to thin your deck is to discard cards you will not need in the game. The best way to discard cards, without drastically overextending, is through Ultra Ball. This is one of those "next level" plays that truly separate the good players from the elite players (you are better than I, BTW), and your lists does not facilitate it well. You could always Juniper away large hands of stuff, but that is normally going overboard. One of the best "prepare yourself for late game N" plays out there is to Skyla for N, on a turn that you don't need to play a Supporter, and then Ultra Ball away that N. That both thins your deck and lowers the probability of getting N'd into N.

    Now for some questions about Darkrai/Lando/Terrakion/Sableye/Hammers:

    1) In your testing/competitive matches with this deck, did you normally use the Sableye + Loop Hammers trick, or did you end up going aggro attackers? My and a couple friends have this deck built, we started trying to loop hammers, but we ended up having significantly more success just going aggro attackers.

    2) That lead us to make the following changes from your list:
    -1 Sableye
    -1 Tool Scrapper
    -1 Crushing Hammer

    +1 Ultra Ball
    +1 Switch
    +1 Skyla
    The switch is for the, still present, FlipTini stall tatics. The Skyla just facilitates more clutch plays. The Ultra Ball both better facilitates discarding Energy, making the deck faster, and finding our desired attackers more often. What do you think?

    Onto Keldeo/Blastoise:

    1) Do you really think four Keldeo is the best play? In my experience, it seems like that slot could be used for something much more advantageous, like Super Rod.

    2) What are your thoughts on Pokemon Center in this deck? In my opinion, good Darkrai lists are actually very strong against Keldeo. This is particularly true when Darkrai is packing Dark Claw, and Darkrai can 2HKO Blastoise from the Snipe + Night Spear damage. Thus, Blastoise needs so way to mitigate that bench damage, and Pokemon Center has been used successfully in this capacity.

    Again good article, and thank for taking the time to write it and respond to questions.
  9. Crawdaunt

    Crawdaunt Active Member

    I definitely appreciated this article Dylan! Particularly a look into Landorus/Mewtwo.

    In Blastoise/Keldeo, I think that 4 Keldeo is probably overboard. You can avoid prizing issues, sure. But the deck doesn't really deal too poorly with one Keldeo being prized. Tropical Beach allows you to draw your deck pretty effectively, and you'll usually run into an expendable Ultra Ball or Keldeo at that point. It's one of those maximizing your efficiency things. 4 Keldeo isn't bad, but the slot could probably be used on something better. Airhawk's Pokemon Centre for instance (definitely useful against decks with fixed damage output).

    tbh airhawk, the biggest strength of Pokemon Centre is to heal an active Keldeo thiiiiiis much, to prevent 2HKO's from a Darkrai. It allows you to pile energy on without worrying about losing it the very next turn, which can result in sweeping through games.
  10. airhawk06

    airhawk06 Active Member

    @Mark: I think Center is a very solid addition. I just wanted his opinion of it. It prevents 2HKOs on both Keldeo and it puts an end to the 30+110 Night Spear + Dark Claw shenanigans from Darkrai.
    Crawdaunt likes this.
  11. DylanLefavour

    DylanLefavour Member

    Thanks for the positive feedback guys. Adam really had to work with me on this one, pretty much made a fool of myself because of how many errors it had initially.

    Pokemon Center is strong but in my opinion, 2 stadiums really clashes. One has a specific use but I don't like having to get rid of my beach could be useful anytime when center would help most at a few crucial points. For that reason, I would rather play another max potion or another healing card.

    In regards to Ultra Ball, I disagree with using it to discard useless cards in this case . Reason being, there are few useless cards in the deck. Almost every card has a use in every matchup save for the landorus which are dead against several decks. I found ultra ball itself the dead card in fact. Benching mewtwo when you see it is an option against most decks and Ultra Ball isn't gone entirely, so you will see it. 3 is reasonable, your argument is extremely valid. Personally, I think 4 is excessive with so many good starters, computer search, and worst case scenario, skyla for ultra ball.

    I knew some of my choices would stir discussion. Super Rod is a good option over a fourth Keldeo, but I appreciated being able to use Keldeo more liberally as a wall and started with four. Super Rod is plently logical and sort of allows for playing 3 retrieval and 3 keldeo because of its duel role, saving space.

    As far as the hammers strategy, I like it against certain decks. Against fighting, attacking with darkrai seems like a death wish. Most decks I agree, its best to attack early when possible. Hammer recycling is best if your opponent gets a slow start, you need to briefly change your plan to account for a bad start, or against a deck like fighting or sigilyph which are poor matchups otherwise.

    I think keldeo is a bad matchup if blastoise gets a fairly decent start. I feel like at any point in the game they get an undamaged keldeo with 7 energy, you're going to have a hard time. The fact that this is a threat you can't allow at any point in the game is what makes this so tough. I feel like attacking blastoise is futile. Of course, like with any play there is a time and place. At the right moment, taking out blastoise is devastating. But its not hard to get 2, in which case, then focusing 2 turns at best on 2 blastoise becomes VERY futile. In 2 turns an undamaged keldeo should have no trouble setting up to run through 2 or more pokemon. Its a very swingy matchup. It can go south for either player very quickly but I think more often than not darkrai is losing.
  12. JayHornung

    JayHornung Active Member

    Um I think your in trouble in ANY match up where Blastoise gets a Keldeo EX with 7 energy under it...
    Crawdaunt likes this.
  13. airhawk06

    airhawk06 Active Member

    Fair enough on your opinion about Ultra Ball. I still disagree, but I understand. It's not whether or not cards are useless in certain match ups, it is whether or not you will need those cards in a given game. By the mid game, you should largely have an idea of what you will need to win the game at hand. At that point in time, you should start to shed cards that are not needed to protect yourself from being N'd into bad cards. When ahead, you can always Ultra Ball away your N's and so on.
  14. Vysekun

    Vysekun The Ninetales and the Grapes

    Just wanted to say that I ran your Keldeo deck list at a cities just past with -1 Level Ball and +1 Keldeo (Hydro Pump) and went 5-0 in Swiss, before losing in top 4 to Ho Oh/Mewtwo/Landorus EX/Tornadus EX/Heavy Sigilyph.

    And that I regret putting in the Baby Keldeo. Didn't even help vs. Sigilyph, although I'm not 100% sure if that's my bad play or not.

    So cheers for that.