New Formats Announded

Discussion in 'Pokemon TCG News & Gossip' started by hfechhelm, Jul 22, 2014.

  1. Otaku

    Otaku Well-Known Member

    Not trying to be a jerk but what about the others?

    Second "make good" doesn't mean to me what it means to you. Still, in the interest of me actually clarifying what I mean; the card has to have zero use. Someone find a niche use for it? That's still "too good". I first became aware that these promos existed because of Apprentice; I found a Trainer with an effect terrible for most decks but not for my own (iirc, it put both Active Pokémon to Sleep) and didn't recognize where it was from.

    Ah found it: Tropical Wind, originally released back in 1999 as part of the Tropical Mega Battle (something I also learned about at best two years after the fact). It was also released for the 2001 Tropical Mega Battle. Neither of these were in English; the first English release was World's 2004.
  2. Professor_N

    Professor_N Well-Known Member

    Tropical Tidal Wave has actually seen play by a Japanese player on a The Top Cut video in Worlds 2012; He used it to counter Eviolites. He played it on his first turn when he opponent had already played Eviolites down and he won the coin flip and discarded the Eviolites IIRC. It's obviously not reliable though.

    It's interesting that this was a Worlds promo and now something almost exactly the same is being printed without the coin flip (Startling Megaphone).
  3. KPiplup

    KPiplup An Imposter

    Truthfully, I spent my time trying to think what the last one was and came up empty.
    Sorry, but if a card doesn't see at least some decent size of competitive play, I would strongly say that does not make it "good."
    I've seen people claim to have found a "niche use" for terrible cards (Feraligatr prime was a great example). Doesn't mean the card was good, it means someone's perception of "good" was definitely off. Some of the people I've seen talking scout Training Center FUF are also in this boat.
    I truly mean no offense, but if memory serves, that's well after you moved out of actually playing competitive tournaments and into your current role of watching, correct? I'd argue that just because one person thinks they've found a use for a card does not mean it's good or an optimal use of deck space.

    For the record, my beef with your statement was that the prior Worlds cards hadn't set a precedent of being completely irrelevant. To competitive players, they had. I completely agree that Worlds promos should not be competitively usable; in fact, my hope was that this year's Pikachu was a sign of a wrestling theme, meaning the promo could be alt-art Fighting Stadium FUF. That, unfortunately, clearly didn't happen.
  4. KPiplup

    KPiplup An Imposter

    I feel I addressed the first portion of your post sufficiently in addressing Otaku's points. If that's in error, either of you can let me know.

    The com flip is a very big deal. There's lots of cards that, without a coin flip, would be competitive. The Hooligans thing from DEX is an example. A coin flip to do something as minor (at that time; Garbodor makes this relevant now) as that? Almost every player made the decision that the upside didn't justify the deck space.

    For perspective, at 2012 Worlds, most of the Japanese Eel lists played 1-3 Junk Arm—Something every other player would've scoffed at. Conveniently, you didn't see any of those in Top 16. The point of saying that isn't to undermine the Japanese competitively, but to point out that just because one small group of players perceives something to be good does not make it such.
  5. thflame

    thflame Member

    Pokemon Fan Club isn't too bad for this. (saves space over Level Ball/can get Miltank or Horsea at the cost of a supporter)

    Additionally, you could play "Call for Family" Emolga. That basically gets you two Froakie at the cost of one Energy. Just "suicide-lead" with it. If you're lucky, you can get 2 "Call for Family" attacks off. (4 Froakies). (Also works with Miltank and Horsea)

    That's what I'd do at least.

    Hope this helps.
  6. Otaku

    Otaku Well-Known Member

    "Made good" is an expression in English, it means "to be successful". Given the context, I can see how that would be confusing: my entire point was that releasing cards this was guaranteed failure of some kind. The card had to be utterly useless in any competitive capacity... and it would still annoy players that had a fun deck and wanted it. It created a huge hurdle to collectors as well; not as big of a deal when its not a part of the regularly numbered promos, but sure enough that is what we've been seeing for the last several years. Too low of supply, centered around a select few, creating a greater incentive to hoard said supply to keep prices up.

    Success is failure; the less of a total failure the card ends up being, the worse it is for the game. Tropical Beach ended up proving extremely useful for slower paced decks, so its success made the problem with such releases obvious. However the problem still exists if it just the optimal choice for a legitimate deck; even fun decks have a purpose.

    Are you criticizing people for misunderstanding the term "niche"? Feraligatr Prime is quite hard to portray as such; it isn't the kind of thing you TecH into a deck.

    It definitely wasn't terrible; calling it such is an exaggeration We never found a competitive build, but given the success of Deluge, it really boils down to a combination of the previous formats and rules. We never got a strong enough attacker to go with it, given the rest of the card pool and the rules of the time. Blastoise has a few intrinsic advantages that Feraligatr Prime lacks (most important being it can attach to any Type) but the main thing is that Blastoise got worthwhile attackers but Feraligatr Prime didn't.

    My time attempting to be a competitive player stretches from approximately 2001 to 2007. I confess, my own memory of the specifics is hazy and perhaps I stated it incorrectly in the past: 2004 was well within when I was trying to be competitive. In 2001, I wasn't that good of a player anyway plus my card pool was very much lacking; perhaps most important was the lack of tournaments in which to participate, especially official, sanctioned ones. By the time Nintendo took over I was still far from a top player (I've never been close to it), but locally I was one of the best nasty habit of "choking"/"going on tilt" at tournaments, though. By 2005 or 2006 I realized making Worlds was going to require extreme luck, but I was still trying to be competitive, though I eschewed being mainstream. However it was clear by 2007 I just couldn't spare the time or money to even make my former attempts.

    S'also kind of irrelevant; it sounds like it was taken as me indicating some Worlds winning deck was using it, but that wasn't my meaning. Even if it was just a fun deck that was heavily enjoyed at Pokémon League, that's useful enough that such promos create a problem.

    Didn't "competitive players" also think Tropical Beach was bad until the next day (or was it just later that day) they were proven wrong? ;) Perhaps my memory has failed me again, but "competitive players" are a wide and varied lot, and some are really bad at predicting how good a card will be (they compensate in other areas and can still be fine players).

    Unless the promo literally has no game relevant text (its essentially a trophy you can stick in your deck) or is illegal for competitive play, there's always the risk that the effect will be better than anticipated. In the case of Tropical Beach, either they set out to make a very good card or they completely blew their attempt at making a not-so-good card, which is why you don't even attempt to make something that can be played. That is why I compared it to Russian roulette; a "game" that is played with a revolver where all but one chamber is empty, but the one that isn't has live bullet in it and "players" take turns putting the gun to their head and pulling the trigger; odds are it won't be use dying but its not worth the risk.

    You don't think any past promos were useful; fine maybe they weren't. Automatically dismissing future cards as being "irrelevant" was still folly, as Tropical Beach demonstrated. Even the 'bad" promos released before this were more or less one card away from becoming important.

    Edit: Not sure if anyone really read this before I edited it, but I felt my initial wording was a little harsh. Sorry; I probably shouldn't have posted because I could tell it had an edge. >_<
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2014
  7. KPiplup

    KPiplup An Imposter

    I'm sorry if this comes off as arrogant or anything to that effect, that's not the intent, but my stance is this: Tropical Tidal Wave, Championship Arena, Tropical Tidal Wind, whatever other promo I'm forgetting did not see anything above marginal competitive play. My stance on the idea that it's a problem for casual players? I apologize that this is a hard stance, but I strongly feel that it's not the problem (nor should it be a major concern) of TPCI's if someone feels the need to make something out of nothing. They could make the promo "Each of your Pokemon take 10 damage between turns" and not be safe from "fun decks."

    I also feel absolutely zero sympathy for collectors who complain about a card being "hard to get." The notion that it should be easy to get every card delves far too much into entitlement for me to have any sympathy. There is absolutely no reason for every card to be easy to access from a collector's standpoint.

    I'd strongly argue that every promo through Tropical Beach was a total failure. I truly cannot accept the idea of gauging cards based on their usability in "fun decks," every card in format could viably be in a "fun deck."
    Firstly, please be aware, I'm not criticizing anyone in any of this. I'd attempt to use "friendlier" language, but I feel in order to effectively communicate the points I'm attempting to make, it's better to be clear rather then 100% politically correct. I apologize if this is an issue for anyone.

    It's quite apparent to me that you and I will never come to a consensus on this, because this is in-of-itself my definition of terrible. That's not only my take, but it also seems to concur with "of very poor quality," which is among the definitions offered by Webster.
    You established my point right there. Feraligatr prime was "terrible" (or, if you really insist, "poor" may be a lesser exaggeration) card because it could only attach to Water types and had no decent Water types to partner with. If a card has no place in its format, I would define it as terrible.

    It was, perhaps, not the greatest example. Slowking Prime would've been very appropriate.

    I know it's not completely relevant, I was just trying to recall what perspective you were coming from. The fundamental issue here is that we disagree on the importance of TPCI taking "fun decks" into account when planning promo releases.

    Lots of players discount good cards at first glance. Again, it was intended to be bad. Unfortunately for TPCI, they didn't do a good enough job of making it "terrible."

    Now that I spent all that time, I believe we both agree that there are potential pitfalls to the idea of the exclusive promos. The one and only beef I have with anything you've said is the idea that any of the promos sans Beach had(have) any business being in decks. I maintain they didn't. I don't disagree with your assessment that it's a flawed concept. Again, I think alt-art Fighting Stadium would be great. I just don't agree that it's as big of an issue as you think it is.
  8. Professor_N

    Professor_N Well-Known Member

    Of course the coin flip makes it not nearly as good as it could have been, but it just so happened in that specific situation that I saw it was a fantastic play with no drawback since he hadn't played any of his Eviolites yet. As you know Eviolites were an important part of the game at the time and being able to wipe them from the board was huge. (It might not be as huge as I'm thinking it is if Junk Arm can bring it back, but I don't know if JArm can grab Tools back, correct me if it can). That said I probably wouldn't have played any because of the chance to discard my own Eviolites and Skyarrow Bridges.
  9. KPiplup

    KPiplup An Imposter

    Your last sentence sums it up perfectly. Junk Arm could get any item, and tools are items.
  10. Professor_N

    Professor_N Well-Known Member

    I was confused because back in the day everything was labeled as "Trainer," whether it was "Trainer - Supporter," "Trainer - Stadium," or "Trainer - Trainer," and you couldn't get back the ones labeled Stadium or Supporter, only the ones labeled Trainer - Trainer. I suppose Tools fall under the Trainer - Trainer category if they were there back in that day. I remember now, they changed the word "Trainer" to "Item" when they released BLW or something like that. So even if a card said "Trainer" on it it meant "Item."
  11. Otaku

    Otaku Well-Known Member

    @KPiplup I am leaving the stuff that is mostly a matter of how we choose to define terminology alone; we don't agree, as you stated. Plus some of the stuff you chose to focus on was a bit confusing, but I did start this by focusing on a small part of another of your posts and I'm about to do it again, so I will just let it remain a bit confusing.

    This on the other hand I believe deserves an answer (if you think I snipped too much of your comment away and somehow changed your meaning, let me know). I don't know how you define "big of an issue". To be honest, the Pokémon TCG isn't that big of an issue. I've had a miserable day, and looking up my symptoms online is terrifying, so I'll probably have to pay for a doctor visit out of pocket (did I mention I've been unemployed for some time now) tomorrow to make sure its just my IBS and not a heart attack. In the grand scheme of things, that isn't even a big problem; check out the headline news for the real big stuff. ;)

    Edit: ...and it was the IBS, which means there is little I can do but attempt a fast (...which usually is no more than a two day thing, and often can be as short as 20 hours) and see if the internal swelling goes down, but this is mostly a matter of discomfort/pain (varying in severity) and not, ya know, keeling over dead so that's a relief. Still drained my meager savings, but a relief.

    If we are just discussing the game... if the powers-that-be think more like you than me, I will point out the game's entire history in the United States as an example to why it matters; the same mentality that leads to "Its okay to print bad cards!" is the same one that made so much of the BW-era feel like almost like the pre-Modified days. Is it that bad? Thankfully no it is not... but overall it seems like the game has taken some number of steps both forwards and backwards... and maybe a few sideways with pirouette just to confuse the issue even more. Bad cards are going to happen; we don't need intentional ones nor do we need card distribution schema that can so seriously skew the metagame.

    Oh... and Junk Arm gets back a single Item at the cost of a two card discard from hand; that's a pretty hefty price and while Junk Arm was an amazing card you needed to run, forcing your opponent to use it for something other than originally intended was to your advantage. That does not mean I believe Tropical Wind was worth running at the time: I don't know (I suspect not). It is important to remember that the metagame is a very strange thing, and that even what was isn't necessarily going to be the best results. @baby_mario even brought it up in an opinion piece; it is so much easier to come by good deck lists, and I remember first hand (and the records aren't hard to find) how cards thought competitive "back in the day" are either already proven or suspected of being falsely "good", aided by ignorance and lack of product.
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2014
  12. KPiplup

    KPiplup An Imposter

    When BW was released, everything was retroactively reclassified. Trainer-Trainer=Item, Trainer-Supporter=yeah...