On Playing Plasma – Building a List and Mastering Its Matchups

Discussion in 'UG Article Talk' started by JayHornung, May 23, 2013.

  1. JayHornung

    JayHornung Active Member

  2. calbears

    calbears New Member

    hey jay great read. 1 question though why only one kyreum? i feel like it is one of the strongest attackers for the deck. Also do u feel like the scramble switch is the defiant ace spec for plasma decks.
    PokemonPlayer101 likes this.
  3. FlareStarfire

    FlareStarfire Front Page Contributor

    Question for you: With a surge in Plasma already being seen in BR's and expected high numbers in Nationals, which meta deck / decks do you feel benefit the most from that flood if you're not going to play a mirror all day long?
  4. JayHornung

    JayHornung Active Member

    Calbears: Because I played Tornadus EX and didn't want to go over 10 Pokemon....Scramble Switch imo has a slightly lead over Computer Search farther down the line is Dowsing Machine. Those are the only 3 I would even consider.

    Flare: Darkrai...you can tech that thing pretty hard against Plasma.
  5. PP101

    PP101 The Swarm for 3 seconds then accidentally left

    I agree with Calbears. Kyurem is one of the strongest attackers in the deck, at least according to my testing. I guess I'll have to try it out with lower Kyurem counts.
  6. FluffieLoofah

    FluffieLoofah New Member

    since when does ultra ball give you a new hand
  7. cabd

    cabd Taking over for Tamoo as the girly looking mod.

    Since it searches out tornadus EX plasma that gets you a new hand? I think.
  8. Crawdaunt

    Crawdaunt Active Member

    FluffieLoofah, he's running Tornadus EX PLF.

    An interesting read. I like your Trainer lineup, I like your Energy lineup for your build of the deck, the only thing I'm not sure of is your Pokemon lineup. I don't dislike the Tornadus (I rather like it, after having tested with it myself in a couple decks), but as others have said, Kyurem is bloody good.

    Like... think about your own logic. You can't Catcher around Kyurem, and it can't attack so it doesn't make an appealing target. But Plasma has no problem getting Kyurem out of there in some fashion. One really strong play I've loved is Scramble Switch'ing from one Kyurem to another, giving you two turns of unappealing targets OHKO'ing their big bad EX's (4 prizes taken). Personally wouldn't run less than 2, and I'd sooner drop 3rd Thundurus than 3rd Kyurem. But as you said, different lists with different players, and your list is certainly different. I haven't playtested it obviously, and I'm intrigued by Tornadus EX and your focus on DCE. But having played similar lists revolving around Lugia... I have chosen against that lineup of Pokemon/Energy.

    Landorus also becomes much weaker with 2-3 Kyurems, practically giving Plasma an Autowin against Big Basics provided they aren't too Mewtwo-focused.

    I also wouldn't recommend Victini EX in RayEels, as most players are playing more Kyurems. And Kyurem is very happy to see a Victini EX hit the field, as it lets you snipe while KO'ing an EX. If anything, you just want to devote that search to a Tynamo.

    Overall, a good read and great matchups advice. I don't know if I like the tools you bring to your games though... But that's just me, and if it's working for you I bet it really is working for you so I look forward to seeing how you might progress in your list. Your starting point is certainly different from a lot of players.

    p.s. 3 Skyla <3
  9. Charranitar

    Charranitar Well-Known Member

    Have you tested Keldeo with float stone as the switching mechanism at all? I played 3 Switch/2 Float Stone Saturday and 3 Switch/1 Float Stone/1Scramble switch on Sunday, and the continuous switching mechanism seems strong for this deck with Kyurem, as well as loading your bench with a bunch of Deoxys. The obvious issues are bench space and tool scrapper.

    The biggest issue I had is the liability of a bunch of Deoxys on the bench. Both of my losses this weekend in some part were a result of my opponent catching a Deoxys and me having no way to get it out of active. Five switching cards and 3 DCE didn't seem like enough, but there is the big issue of where more space can come from for more switching cards.
  10. Parenting101

    Parenting101 Active Member

    Great article as always, Jay! After my insane experience at a Battle Roads last Saturday, I am toying around with Tornadus EX PLF as well. I ran 14 supporters and managed to go through TWENTY TWO cards before I finally pulled a supporter in my first game! I then went completely supporter dry in game 4 for I believe, 12 turns! Not sure if it was just crazy bad luck, but it definitely has me looking towards Tornadus EX.

    I do have to agree with the others and say that I prefer more Kyurem. I don't like the fact that Lugia EX only has 1 high energy attack and is week to Thundurus EX. I faced a Lugia EX in a mirror match. By the time he loaded it up, I managed to scramble switch into a fully loaded Thundurus EX, catchered Lugia EX up and 1hit it. I know that won't happen every time and could also happen to Tornadus EX, but at least Tornadus EX has a good low energy attack to help make it worth the deck space.

    One other "tech" that others are trying and I really like in the mirror match is Absol PLF. For 2 energy, your opponent's bench full, and Hypnobank combo, Absol is hitting the 180 bench mark as well. Really helps deal with Gothlock as well, provided you get a chance to attack at all. Need more testing to see if it is worth the extra inconsistency though (only Prism energy works).

    Gothlock is a deck I need a lot more practice time against now as well. :(

    I do like the thought of having DCE as an alternative "switch" for Deoxys EX. I will have to try it out. This is what I love about the Underground articles and the discussion in the forums afterwards.
  11. QuarterTurn

    QuarterTurn Front Page Contributor

    Great article. I agree that the Darkrai vs. Plasma matchup is one we'll be seeing a lot of and it deserves a great deal of practice.
    Do you have any suggestions or thoughts on how to play the mirror matchup?
  12. yelsha42

    yelsha42 Member

    I really enjoyed the way this article was constructed. I'm also questioning the one Kyurem - specifically in the Klinklang matchup. What is your game plan there?
  13. JayHornung

    JayHornung Active Member

    The 1 Kyurem was simply due to not wanting to go above 10 Pokemon and as discussed the Pokemon line up is very tight. I strongly maintain that 4 Dexoys is needed, as is the 1 Lugia. This leaves you room to cut a Thundurus EX (which I discussed the pros and cons of in the article...namely prizing one) or a Tornadus EX which I was playing mainly out of fear of a bad start and BR's being 1 and done tournament series. I certainly can't hate on 2 Kyurem by any means it was my 11th Pokemon for sure.

    Pokemon Player: See above :)

    Fluff: yep Ultra Ball to Tornadus EX

    Cabd: beat me to it!

    Crawdaunt: Your opening paragraph is why I love Plasma so much...there is tons of different ways to play the deck which still gives me hope that we'll see completely different list at Nationals doing well.

    The Victini EX point is solid....the match up is just so hard for RayEels IMO. I was just trying to come up with something to get out of the gate quicker.

    I'll firmly stand behind the smaller Skyla, because its far better in the mid and late game and far weaker in the opening hand. The lack of being able to get energy is huge imo and I find many times with the deck I want to speed through it and get a new hand. I'm already playing 2 Colress which are also weak in the opening hand and doesn't make me feel better about a higher Skyla count.

    Char: No I haven't...the bench space is to big of a deal and its much harder to set up. I totally see where your coming from, but we can both agree that 3 Dexoys is needed, and than Keldeo EX only leaves me 2 open bench spaces which is tight. IDK I could be wrong it's something I want to test before Nats.

    Tool Scrapper doesn't bother me to much...I really don't think the card will see a ton of play. Messing with your opponents Float Stones doesn't justfi the spot IMO.

    Parenting101: That was my issue with Absol as well...I would play more Kyurem long before Absol. Absol also adds another dead early game card which I don't want in such a fast format. Kyurem is more good through the whole game.

    I'll be honest and say I haven't tested Goth, but I feel like it's so much harder to set up than people realize and there is a lot of weak points for them early game. They need to keep both Goth and Accelgor in play and Plasma is one of the few decks that can 1HKO Goth. I feel the first few turns would be really rough for the Goth player and a lot of things to go wrong.

    Quarter: I didn't include that because lists vary so much, I was hoping to get a better idea of what the "standard" list was before I start discussing mirror. Every tech choice such as numbers in the Pokemon line up and cards like Max Potion make such a huge difference in mirror

    yelsha42: When building the deck I never really had Klinklang in mind, perhaps I'm wrong but I figured with first turn KO's and the decks struggling plasma match up it would see a decrease in play...perhaps I'll be wrong though.
    yelsha42, Milky, TechnoLegend and 2 others like this.
  14. onlyinAMERICA

    onlyinAMERICA ...because I'm Batman.

    I think this was a great article I really do but some of the aspects about it are a bit questionable...

    You didn't even take Absol into consideration in the Darkrai matchup. Absol is going to make loading up your bench questionable and if you do decide to load it up it's going to make it more of a liability than anything else. Since absol's release my board over the course of a single game vs. Plasma Basics looks like this: 2 Darkrai, 2 Absol, Sableye, and then anything else that I feel I may need to bench (Whether it be Keldeo or anything else in the deck.) and even with a heavy focus on Kyurem or whether their list looks more like yours they still have trouble dealing with Absol. I do recognize that Absol CAN be KO'd in one hit but with a loaded bench Absol can one shot your Kyurems too. I do however agree with you that it tends to go to the player that gets the better t1-t2 start but Sableye+LaserBank+Enhanced Hammer is not the only play Darkrai has against Plasma Basics and can still pull off some amazing plays mid-late game. I did however agree with your reasoning behind the Blastoise and Rayquaza matchups. I also agree with the inclusion Victini EX in Rayeels. I have tested with Victini EX as a tech and it really does work and can help you put some much needed preesure t1-t2 but there's no way I would include more than one copy of it and no way would I bench/play Victini past t2. after t2 Victini EX just becomes a liability.

    I think you were taking Plasma Basics statistics with a very generous mindset. Your board every game won't look like you claimed it would every game. Sometimes it will yes but more often than not your board will probably not look like you would want it to.

    Despite these two problems I had with the article I thought it was very well written and must have taken you a long time to write! I appreciate the time you took off your schedule to write for us!
    TechnoLegend likes this.
  15. JayHornung

    JayHornung Active Member

    On the Absol note, correct me if I'm wrong, but even with a full bench abosl is still 30 shy of KOing an EX. Honestly its the 1HKOs I'm worried about. Even if one night spear puts damage on an EX all I have to do is not Bench a 5th Pokemon and leave Absol short of the KO...granted Dark Claw will play into this alot as well.

    Can you be more clear on what you mean when you say "I think you were taking Plasma Basics statistics with a very generous mindset."
    MZV3151 likes this.
  16. Crawdaunt

    Crawdaunt Active Member

    JayHornung oh no, I loved the fact that you added three skyla :) I met with a lot of dissenting opinion about skyla in plasma basics when I posted my list. But Skyla is... Well... Skyla! So good! Not the best card for the deck, but the next supporter I'd choose.

    Also, Absol is a pain for Kyurem builds as it deals heavy damage with few resources. But I actually agree (not with the complete omission of discussion) that Darkrai is the go-to attacker in that matchup. I find myself holding Absol as a deterrent to their complete setup, which improved the matchup though. Also, 4 basics on bench is an extra 80 damage. Dark claw + laserbank sets up a Darkrai snipe KO, which is almost as good as a OHKO. So I've found limiting bench to 3 is the desirable number, but difficult to maintain.
  17. kittelsonburke

    kittelsonburke New Member

    In my testing, the 3rd Thundurus is useless because I always end up starting with something else and Plasma Ball/Switching. Also, why is it imperative to have 2 in play?
  18. JayHornung

    JayHornung Active Member

    Crawdaunt: Yea, I'm actually going back and forth on the card now...I was just trying to give some of the cons of playing 3.

    Kittelsonburke: You mean 2 Thundurus EX in play?
  19. Crawdaunt

    Crawdaunt Active Member

    kittelsonburke, I agree that three copies of thundurus ex isn't that great. But I think it works well for jay's list as it is less kyurem-focused. So thundurus is actually the main attacker, while when you play heavy kyurem, kyurem is your main attacker.
  20. JayHornung

    JayHornung Active Member

    The idea behind 3 Thundurus EX was actually more about prizing a copy than anything. Its huge in the Darkrai match up and a game saver in many others.