Once XY releases will all B&W be banned??

Discussion in 'Pokemon TCG News & Gossip' started by ianthegamer, Nov 19, 2013.

  1. Otaku

    Otaku Well-Known Member

    If I had to pick at this point for the next rotation, I believe I would favor rotating to PLF-On or LTR-On; cutting straight to XY-On (again, at the expected future time) would leave us with two, maybe three sets. LTR-On gives us four, and while some amazing cards from the BW-block are preserved, a lot of their support seems to vanish. PLF-On was interesting; I was mostly playing Devil's Advocate when someone asked for justification... and then I realized that cutting to PLF-On would actually kick the support out from under one or two established decks, but mostly serves as a preventative measure. There are a lot of cards in DRX, BCR, and PLS that aren't problems right now... but when you rotate you need to look out for what is and what will be and those three sets have a lot of "near misses".

    Edit: Apologies for poor wording. "If I had to pick" can be read as "If I had to guess the rotation right now" and not "If I were the one in charge and deciding where to rotate, based on the current card pool".
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2013
  2. MaverickNate

    MaverickNate Active Member

    I don't see them cutting half the Ace Spec out. There is an extremely blatant, officially recognized break at Boundaries-on, with the promotional artwork illustrator switch, the red/blue tinges in the logos, and the complete switch to featuring B2W2, etc.
  3. Otaku

    Otaku Well-Known Member

    Why not? Are they abandoning this mechanic in the XY sets? Why is this different from past times when card mechanics have been only partially rotated out?

    Where is it officially recognized? As that can sound kind of snarky, let me assure you that I really want to know; official recognition by TPCi that "Hey, we made sure this was a major breaking point" certainly is significant.

    Lastly... what does any of this matter for where I personally would choose to rotate? ;-)

    Edit: Ah, I see about that last point - I didn't word it clearly like I thought I had. I meant that if I had a choice, I'd probably favor making the next format PLF-On for the reasons given in the preceding post... not that I expected that is the decision TPCi would make.
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2013
  4. PellOfTheTundra

    PellOfTheTundra Do you even LT-87

    I'm with you here, partially.

    I'd bet on seeing Plasma-on, and here's why:

    Rotating to the EX era, we only actually lost 8 playable [and I mean that loosely] cards (most of which were situational) in Super Scoop Up, Pokemon Communication, PlusPower, PokeDex, Recycle, Shift Gear Klinklang, Garbage Collection Trubbish, and Eels (sorry Do The Wave, you don't count this time :c).
    It was an extremely small rotation because of all the reprints, I think we all can agree. And, more than likely, due to all the reprints and lack of playable cards, we're going to have an actually small rotation next time as well.

    The differences between BCR-On and Plasma-On are that when you rotate Boundaries Crossed, you lose:

    Vileplume (bye bye Vilebox)
    Celebi-EX (saw moderate play with Dusknoir/Flygon)
    Shell Armor Squirtle (Blastoise now has to run Mime)
    Keldeo BCR 47 (Saw moderate play early on in Keldeo)
    Duskull BCR 61 (Doesn't matter if Dusknoir is reprinted if you don't have a basic to evolve from)
    Landorus-EX (bye bye Garbodor+Basics's answer to Darkrai; you're now a turn slower to hit it although it might not matter due to Dark Patch, Sableye, and Dark Claw being rotated)
    Ditto (Oh, well...)
    Aspertia City Gym (Nerfs Lugia, who may or may not be big come XY)
    Energy Search (I think it got reprinted in XY though)
    Skyla (usage was dropping anyway)
    Town Map (I CRI EVRYTIEM)
    Computer Search (so long and thanks for all the fishing for DCE)
    Crystal Wall (saw some use in Blastoise for Black Kyurem-EX)
    Gold Potion (I'll be sad to see this go)
    Altaria (aww poor fluffychomp)
    ROCKY HALMET (Strangely okay with this)

    Consider the hits that major decks we have now take by rotating BCR. While they might not just because of ACE-SPECs, I am rooting for it, as it's beginning the "out with the old, in with the new" cycle for the rest of our major decks.
  5. KPiplup

    KPiplup An Imposter

    I'm thinking BCR-on as well. Basically see all of MaverickNate's posts for why.
  6. baby_mario

    baby_mario Doesn't even care

    It's all guesswork. They've done completely predictable rotations in the past (first year of DP-on, BLW-on), and some really strange ones too (second year of DP-on, MD-on).

    I think they try to be pretty conservative with rotations (not always such a good idea), but we'll have to wait and see. At least one of the guesses is bound to be right.
    Otaku likes this.
  7. OshaWaterBottle

    OshaWaterBottle Active Member

    I think it will be BCR-On next season.[DOUBLEPOST=1394167625][/DOUBLEPOST]
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2014
  8. Otaku

    Otaku Well-Known Member

    Well, as I love to speculate on such things (and that is all this is, speculation "for fun") I though I'd use Pell's last post to see how things have changed over the last three months:

    Did this deck ever really catch on? I think both with the changes to the rules and the shift to NEX-On, I kept telling myself "I had better give this another look, just in case..." but forgetting about it completely. This deck always seemed to suffer from two large problems; a format where it was overkill or failed to score the needed OHKO and Energy issues. While we probably still have a metagame where (in the end) it would just make more sense to create a "tool box" deck without Vileplume (because x2 Weakness gets the job done anyway), we do now have Rainbow Energy.

    At least I remember this deck having a modicum of success, but by now I think I'd rather spam "Eerie Voice" via Gourgeist with the occasional Hypnotoxic Laser/Spirit Scream combo. Anyway, Celebi EX is that combo piece that never seems to work out; shame its going away but it was a badly executed idea from the start.

    We'll see if Mr. Mime goes back to being vital, but unless "spread" becomes major, I suspect Deluge decks will just live without it. Yveltal EX seems to have lived up to most of the hype, and Landorus EX had seen a decline in play I think around the time Pell actually posted this; what Bench hitter am I forgetting about that it would be such a big deal? Genesect EX is already trouble, after all. XD Oh, and while the above Keldeo did see play, with so many other options for "big, Basic Water Pokémon" (let alone "back up attacker") in Deluge, I don't see it mattering much.

    Technically you could get it out Cradily (BW: Plasma Blast 4/101) and its "Lifesplosion" attack... but since that didn't work before, it probably won't work in the hypothetical future.
    Thinking Garbodor will be fine, but only because its done a solid job of finding new "dance" partners. A bit funny reading this now considering that the deck that Pell was focusing on countering via Landorus EX has now at least partially merged with Garbodor; more worried about what Garbodor/Darkrai EX does without Dark Patch! XD

    Pretty much; sound idea in theory but it never really worked out as promised. =/
    Lugia EX decks seem to be doing alright, but didn't they surprise "us" (I didn't predict it >_<) by shifting to different Stadiums, so that Aspertia City Gym won't be a big loss (or loss at all) for them unless things shift back due to hypothetical future releases?
    Or rather it was immensely improved upon in XY by Professor's Letter. ;)
    Eh, usage may have been "dropping", but I think it leveled off and still remains one of those plays you have to worry about. This is probably one of the real "losses" we'll experience from this hypothetical format shift.
    Did this ever see much play? I mean I see it used, but with my lack of contemporary tournament experience, I can only echo the surprise at seeing it which I also observe in reports I read and videos I've seen.
    Another unexpected turn; at this point Dowsing Machine has replaced it in enough decks that while it certainly is still an excellent play, losing Computer Search likely won't be as jarring as I would have expected three months ago.
    If you had no Computer Search or Dowsing Machine it made sense... but by now this should be a non-issue for competitive play. Oh wait... Tool Scrapper hasn't been reprinted so that an Ace Spec Tool might not be terrible? Perhaps I am wrong on this one.
    Still a bit sad, but Super Potion makes an already small loss even smaller.
    This may be a bigger loss than I thought three months ago; my understanding is that at least for a short time, Dragonite (BW: Plasma Freeze 83/116) made good use of it. Even if they are incredibly short lived, it is somewhat enjoyable to be surprised by such decks... at least when its not you struggling to face them at a tournament. >.>
    Not trying to be mean, but your typo still brings a smile to my face. Otherwise I am "fine" losing this card simply because Rocky Helmet has little place in competitive play... oh right, Tool Scrapper may be gone by then. Still probably not going to cut it in most decks where Muscle Band or Hard Charm could be played; a few niche uses I suppose.

    Note that I am neither convinced PLS-On will be the rotation point nor that it will not; its a solid enough choice but as we are already seeing, it is hard to predict so far in advance how much it will shake things up. ;)
  9. jonboy532

    jonboy532 Is betting on a TDK deck with Muscle Band

    You know, I have just realized the following:
    • LTR has Lugia-EX in it
    • it also has NO PLASMA ENERGY
    This would mean, if the rotation was LTR-on, that Lugia-EX would be unplayable due to the lack of Plasma energy. I haven't heard of pokemon ever making a card completely unusable before, so in my opinion, LTR-on rotation is unlikely.
  10. baby_mario

    baby_mario Doesn't even care

    Yeah, they've done that.

    Team Rocket's Persian ex from UF was unusable once the Meowth from TRR rotated out.
    Otaku likes this.
  11. KPiplup

    KPiplup An Imposter

    LTR-on would be a ridiculous idea.

    1 set clinging on from an old block? Not likely.
  12. Otaku

    Otaku Well-Known Member

    I agree that it would be a ridiculous idea and it is not likely, but the latter is simply because at this point almost every set-based rotation idea has equal merit. Being "ridiculous" describes several past rotations, so that alone isn't grounds for ruling it out. Plus all it takes is one promo Plasma Energy to make Lugia EX playable; this is a good indicator that at least LTR-On wasn't planned on at the time of LTR's release, but even that is circumstantial (seriously, one promo fixes this problem). Plasma Energy itself is a safe (albeit largely pointless) card to have survive through a hypothetical future rotation that takes out the handful of other cards that reference it.

    Again at this point I just enjoy talking about what the effects of hypothetical rotations are, as it still seems far to early to get a bead on actual plans. Oh, and "one set clinging on" is actually a pretty plausible thing; instead of ripping away all past cards and decks, you leave at least a few present but "nerfed". From a "balance" perspective, one of the reasons past reprint sets have been popular is because they were used to keep several key "safe" cards legal. Don't think that's a good description of Legendary Treasures, however; just pointing out the basic concept is actually quite sound.
  13. jonboy532

    jonboy532 Is betting on a TDK deck with Muscle Band

    I am going to bet that teh next rotation will either be BCR-on or PLS-on. after that it'd probably be XY-on.
  14. areuter

    areuter Member

    Personally, I don't want a rotation because I love Yeti/Snorbax/Whatever you may call it it's just the Plasma Lugia deck ad I don't want to lose Prism Energy.
  15. KPiplup

    KPiplup An Imposter

    I feel pretty safe saying Plasma is safe for the year.
  16. areuter

    areuter Member

    I just think that if Prism is gone, then you'll end up taking and extra 10 damage whenever you attach, say, to a Deoxys, to Helix Force, and you take 10 damage. That puts it at 160 HP, in which case a Megalo Cannon+LaserBank going into your turn+LaserBank going into their turn will knock it out. That happens a lot. (Not the K.O., but the 160 damage.)
  17. Otaku

    Otaku Well-Known Member

    If my own understanding of Plasma decks is inaccurate or incomplete, please feel free to correct what I am about to say; its how I learn and how discussion generally occurs.

    Prism Energy
    isn't a Team Plasma card; while it is used by Team Plasma decks it is also used by other decks and Rainbow Energy is already there to replace it; the net result may very well balance out or still be an improvement over where Team Plasma decks were pre-Rainbow Energy.

    Citing a very specific instance is only useful for disproving a universal statement, but doesn't prove that the inverse of the statement is true; "I am the tallest person alive!" is disproved the instant you supply a single person taller than me, though it doesn't prove that I am the shortest person alive.

    Deoxys EX may have just been meant as an example, but it seems a bad one; as an attacker the card is a "specialist", reserved the rare circumstances it is the best option to attack with. Ignoring desperation plays e.g. when the deck is failing due to bad luck or misplays, a well built deck and skilled player are going to use it when they absolutely need to keep something else from being KOed but still need to attack, or when that attack is going to be well worth the risk of losing a Deoxys EX. The occasions where Deoxys EX would have a Rainbow Energy manually attached from hand, should attack, was expected to survive, but that 10 HP difference will result in a KO are small indeed... and why are you not getting rid of the Poison before your opponents turn or generating enough advantage that losing Deoxys EX won't matter?

    TL;DR: I question areuter's usage of "a lot".
  18. baby_mario

    baby_mario Doesn't even care

    If Prism is rotated, then Plasma decks will take a bit of knock. Obviously an all-Basics list will favour Prism over Rainbow.

    'Bit of a knock' is not the same as 'fatal blow'.

    The Deoxys example is a bit obscure, I agree. I would be more concerned about Sawk/Bangle vs Thundurus ;)
  19. KPiplup

    KPiplup An Imposter

    I originally read his posts as "Plasma Energy" rotating, not prism. That changes things, yes, but the deck will still be around.
  20. StrongRhino

    StrongRhino 6P fantasy football champ 2013!

    I'm going to be so sad I won't be able to use Dark Patch and Sableye with Darkrai most likely :(
    Gelato and HighShroomish like this.