“Pokésophical Investigations” – Dealing with Loss in a Competitive Setting

Discussion in 'UG Article Talk' started by CeladonBrit, Mar 6, 2014.

  1. CeladonBrit

    CeladonBrit New Member

  2. Reshiphlosion

    Reshiphlosion The Swarm

    This right here was the best part, it made me laugh so hard. :D

    Anyways great article! It's just what players need to read and hear before going into a large event (or any event really) good job!
    Willyazaa likes this.
  3. superw8

    superw8 Did you?

    Articles like this are the reason that I pay for Underground.
    vanzan412 likes this.
  4. Adam

    Adam Noice bruv, innit.

    I want to play devil's advocate on one thing...

    "I want to win. I want to beat you. But I don’t want you to beat you."

    At what point would you, as the player making a mistake, not feel "right" asking for a redo? I think with the way you lay things out, that could be subject to a wide range of interpretation. If I make a mistake then ask two turns later to correct it, would you let me?

    Also, I see teams/athletes beat themselves in sports all the time, and very few times have I seen the opposition concede anything. Pokemon is not exactly a sport, but I think it could be labeled as a competition. Does that mean you aren't being an authentic "competitor" if you allow a redo? Are you then doing a disservice to your opponent by not forcing them to bring to the table a higher level of play?

    I guess it depends on what character traits each individual values and their purposes for playing, but I could see validity in both sides.
    ShadoeDelgado likes this.
  5. OshaWaterBottle

    OshaWaterBottle Active Member

  6. vanzan412

    vanzan412 New Member

    excellent article, i like how when you said "What I am saying is that winning or losing does not change who you are and thus you also shouldn’t change how it makes you act." because i need to remember that, i get too worked up when i loose.
  7. jbcheshire

    jbcheshire Member

    To go along with Adam, I also think that Pokemon is a competitive "sport". Since mistakes are part of sports, should you really feel bad for NOT giving someone a do over when they ask??... I don't think so when you are talking about play at the premiere events. AND, should you ever really ask to have a do over when you make a mistake in a Pokemon premiere event??...

    In most competitive sports a winning team (person) accomplishes this by not only playing superior to their opponents, but also being to capitalize on their opponents' mistakes. For example, in football, if one team fumbled (a mistake) would the other team ever just say "oh, I know you didn't mean to do this so here is the ball back"??.. I don't think so. That's part of the game as almost all mistakes are that are part of the game-play...

    Anyway, great article and I hope you write more here!
  8. JayHornung

    JayHornung Active Member

    Brits article did exactly what he wanted and thats stimulate conversation. I guess my 2 points would be...

    1.) Somebody that has that mentality should be completely against scooping seeing that somebody shouldn't beat themselves...correct?

    2.) I strongly disagree otherwise there is no point in playing. The idea behind Pokemon isn't to find out who can play flawlessly, its too see who can make the right play in a limited time window. I would love to play with unlimited time and before each move confer with Jason, Kyle, and Ross before making a play. Misplaying is part of the game otherwise players could just flip over their starting hands and decide a winner. When playing a game that involves a large amount of luck, the skill aspect needs to remain intacted imo.
  9. CeladonBrit

    CeladonBrit New Member

    Thank you all for the kind words! I honestly was uncertain how it would be received by the community but it seems like people are enjoying my different approach to Six Prizes. I am excited to be part of the family and hope to be producing new material for you guys in the future.

    In response to Adam’s question, I think that the ‘re-do’ has to be brought up immediately. Asking to correct something that occurred two turn previous is generally impossible since it would wreck the game state. I think that my ‘authentic’ player sees the game outside of winning and best possible finishes and so they’re more lenient to allow take-backs since they are beyond a ‘win-at-all-costs’ mentality.

    In the case of Aaron, I think the ‘take-back’ is easy to see because he realized the mistake basically in the middle of the play – this is what I’m advocating for. If you realize the mistake before it’s at the point where a take-back might be questionable then I think it’s advisable for your opponent to be gracious with what they allow you to do. In Pokemon, regardless of how good you are, some luck has to go your way and so I’ve never felt the need to burn any bridges along the way and thus I do prescribe this kind of take-back approach.

    Note that this does exclude someone who declares X-Ball only to realize that they were one energy shy of the knock-out – they quickly flash the energy to you and ask if they can attach it and finish their turn as planned. This is simply being careless and I don’t think really fits into what I am trying to argue for or against. I hope that makes sense!

    My good friend Kenny Wisdom raised this point to me earlier today and that is whether or not a game just boils down to who makes a mistake first and if you allow mistakes to be corrected, are you not just removing skill from the game. I think this sort of approach is more akin to something like Chess which likely does boil down to who messes up first. In Pokemon, we have variance and ‘luck of the draw’ scenarios where you can play perfectly and still lose because of a poor N and so forth.

    At Jay:

    Yes, I do believe that scooping is ill advisable and diminishes the kind of excellence that I think player should strive for.

    I hope this clarifies some of your concerns! I look forward to discuss these things further! :)

    Adam likes this.
  10. Obro

    Obro New Member

    Lovely article. It's great to discuss something els than just deck and card choices.

    First off, I don't see what the question about who you are as a person based on your win or loss has to do with deserving to win.
    I'm not even sure about your own position to this 'deserving to win' issue. You write 'No one and I mean no one, is more entitled to a win or loss.'
    I agree that making misplays in a game doesn't mean that you don't deserve to win. It might actually mean the opposite, if you could get away with making misplays and still win.
    You then write 'Deserving to win for something that happens in game versus being intrinsically more deserving to win than your opponent are entirely different concepts.'
    Does that mean that you DO believe in the concept of being intrinsically more deserving to win?

    About misplays. X-Balling with too few energies is indeed careless, but discarding the wrong cards with Ultra Ball is not?
    Is the huge difference just that the play has not been completed?

    And just to clear up, when you say that scooping diminshes the kind of excellence that a player should strive for, does that include scooping when it is obvious that the opponent is going to win next turn? How about scooping for tactical reasons in Bo3?

    Looking forward to discuss things further too :)

  11. CeladonBrit

    CeladonBrit New Member

    No, I do not. I think that everyone (good or bad) is equally entitled to a win or a loss, but presupposing that you are MORE entitled to one or the other is smuggling unneeded baggage into the conversation which might affect how you play the game. In my own example, when I felt entitled to win, my own mood was greatly affected - I was agreed, easy to anger and always felt like I deserved to be the one winning the event basically regardless of who I played against. Obviously, this should not be the case and I want others to embellish such a mentality.

    In the difference between the X-Ball and Ultra Ball, I think it comes down to fluidity of the game itself. Ultra Ball is one of the hardest cards in the game (in my opinion) and so a lot of times you realize your discarding mistakes retrospectively and so it is harder to quantify that kind of mistake. However, if you catch yourself in the middle of it, I think it shows a higher set of processes and I would allow it since it was a play you had the option to anyways. I do not believe in the take-backs on the careless things like forgetting to Deluge an energy since that is something the methodical player (my exemplar) would have noticed and so I find them to be different cases. I would probably have to write a whole separate article to make this distinction clear (so I understand the confusion), but I think in short it is the distinction between a careful and careless mistake.

    My point on scooping diminishing excellence is only involved with the voluntary concessions. I think that scooping to save time in a best of three series or just ending a game quicker so you can go get lunch is perfectly fine.