Discussion in 'Pokemon TCG News & Gossip' started by willcompere, Apr 23, 2014.
Discuss your feelings about pyroar
Will be decent but Garbodor
I think the general consensus on it is that it's a good card, but likely won't see a deck centered around it. From what I've gauged of the discussion here already, people are predicting it'll be a lot like when Sigilyph came into the format. You'll see lists changing up their contents slightly to deal with it and you'll see it as a tech in a few things (I guess Palkia decks and Charizard decks), but a full on deck centered around the card probably won't hold ground for very long (just like quad Sigilyph). Albeit, teching in for a Pyroar is a little more troublesome then teching for Sigilyph since throwing in a Non-ex attacker is a lot less of a commitment then teching in a stage 1 / Garbodor, so we'll get to see how much that comparison holds true soon.
Darkrai Garb Stoise rayboar and virgen all have answers too it. i think people will realize soon while the ability on its own is amazing faces too many challenges to be good
He will be a good tech at times for the same reason that Sigilyph has been a good tech at times.
If you run into a deck that has no answer to Pyroar, you get an autowin, but there are too many counters out there for it to be a safe strategy for building a deck around.
Pyroar/Archeops/Golurk for BDIF. It's gonna win worlds guys! (and it will be the first deck to actually use evosoda effectively!)
But seriously, I definitely think we will see it as a 1-1 or 2-2 tech in a few decks and you will have to have an answer for it in your deck just in case (like sigilyph really). It will be used a lot in Palkia decks, and it will win those decks many games I have no doubt in my mind about that.
I think it helps against one shot decks a lot.
I wouldn't write off Pyroar so soon. It isn't a bad attacker, and it's ability really messes with the current meta. It's also getting a good deal of support with it when it comes out. Let's look at the matchups.
Darkrai Garbodor: Legitimate concern. This is basically the only Tier 1 deck that has a built in counter to Pyroar that isn't unpleasant to rely on. Even so, having the tool on Garbodor is a must. If the Pyroar deck can keep a tool off of Garbodor, it will probably win.
Blastoise: I'll trade a Pyroar for your energy acceleration engine. It's easier for me to set up a second Pyroar than it is for you to set up a second Blastoise and losing a Pyroar doesn't hurt as much as losing a Blastoise. If your attackers aren't powered up when Blastoise gets KOed, or you lack access to the energy to power up Blastoise in the first place, you're sunk.
RayBoar: As above, except for the potential Delphox variant. Even so, trading a Delphox for a Pyroar still isn't a good trade for the RayBoar player.
VirGen: This deck has other problems against a Pyroar-centric deck (like the highly likely fire type main attacker). Not to mention that Pyroar OHKOs everything in the deck. Also, this deck's only counter is its ACE SPEC. Most people are more than willing to trade Pyroars for Genesects w/G-Booster.
The biggest concern for a Pyroar Deck is probably Empire.
I'm not saying there aren't counters to Pyroar, (playing Pyroar isn't going to be an auto-win against most decks) but for the most part, decks won't take well to dealing with it. (Except Garbodor decks)
I will say that teching a 1-1 line of Pyroar in a random deck probably isn't going to work. Neither is a "Quad Pyroar" Deck. It will need to be in conjunction with a Fire Deck that can support it.
Just my $0.02
Scorching Fang isn't "bad"... but neither is it "good"; if it wasn't for the Ability it'd barely be adequate as the "competitive" rate is 90 for three plus a bonus, with even 90 for three (nothing else) usually not being "worth it". This is the real reason Quad Pyroar seems like a bad idea; anything good at bypassing it will stomp it, and anything prepared to counter it probably has a 50-50 chance. That makes the decks where it autowins unlikely to push this over the 50-50 mark itself.
I won't worry about directly quoting the rest, because I started too and was taking too long and becoming too confusing. XD
I agree with your conclusion but some of your supporting statements and analysis feel "off". There are some generalizations that don't hold: Garbotoxin decks are quite varied after all, and many decks that run Garbodor didn't always, and instead found it useful for combating Ability dependent decks... even if said deck uses an Ability itself, but can just get by without it for that match-up... so focusing on just Garbodor/Darkrai EX leaves those out.
Emboar has multiple flavors: Emboar (BW: Boundaries Crossed 26/149) may become a necessary counter-counter but it is there as a one or two card solution to Pyroar. If you're running Delphox, stick with it instead; both Stage 2 Pokémon are outside of the OHKO range for an unassisted Pyroar: it takes Muscle Band and Hypnobank to take out Delphox while the alternate Emboar survives long enough to OHKO a second Pyroar even if one can't ditch the Poison. Granted, Inferno Fandango is one of the decks likely to run a 1-1 or 2-2 Pyroar line and make it work. It is a long shot, but a hard-to-set-up-hard-to-beat deck might emerge from Emboar (Inferno Fandango)/Delphox (Mystical Fire)/Pyroar (Intimidating Mane): Delphox attacks Evolutions/things that ignore Intimidating Mane, Pyroar handles the rest.
The main thing is that so many cards can OHKO Pyroar if they don't have to worry about its Ability. Its Ability is obviously the main draw, but Pyroar may just be the catalyst (pardon the pun) that forces the not-quite-worth-it counters into decks: Raichu to counter Pyroar and Yveltal EX, for example. Oh, Zoroark (Foul Play) might be a decent option while it remains legal; at least if the deck can furnish a (R) Energy and Hypnobank, Dark Claw, or Muscle Band. Even weaker attacks that can get by Intimidating Mane are effective if the Pokémon can also handle damage better than Pyroar.
Still, in the end I think you're right; Pyroar And Friends decks seem like they should become a "thing", because dealing with it is just not easy.
I think that a deck that is based around Pyroar would look something like this;
4-4 Pyroar line
2-2 Trevenant Line
2 Mewtwo-EX or other good colorless attackers
12 "Good" Supporters
1 Utility Supporter
3 Muscle Band
2 Ultra Ball
2 Escape Rope
1 Professor's Letter
1 Pal Pad
2 Startling Megaphone
1 Dowsing Machine/Scramble Switch/Life Dew/Master Ball
This may be a few more than 60 cards, but if you want to use it, you can take out whatever you feel you do not need.
Something I feel I should point out... you twoHKO things right? what do all these counters do? 1HKO things. thats not a one for one tradeoff, its two, maybe even three for one. even if you loose all you delphox (just an example here) but get rid of all of your opponents pyroar you now have a huge advantage.
... unless the Pyroar player has a Water-type tech. then it still is hard. but good point, @infernaperocks .
What Water-Type is it? Not just any Water-Type will do; plenty would fall short of the OHKO against Delphox. Even ignoring obviously bad choices like the average Evolving Basic Pokémon, even a Keldeo EX needs a source of Water Energy or a Muscle Band to score the OHKO. That doesn't sound too bad, but are you going to be running either of those, let alone both? I think there are indeed some builds that would run one, the other or both... but it is still resources being spent, plus in many cases that Water-Type is going down next turn. Oh yeah, and it is risky to Bench it as your opponent may have a way of forcing it Active.
That being said, Suicune and/or Latias EX might make interesting partners; throw in Silver Mirror and now the only thing that can reliably attack is an Evolution that lacks an Ability and isn't a Team Plasma Pokémon. =P Latias EX probably isn't that good of a fit as you can't Blacksmith to it or use a Double Colorless Energy to speed it up, though I suppose Energy Switch is an option as well (it is still worth two Prizes, just as big of a concern).
I also realized a potentially good counter for Pyroar, so I might as well bounce it off of the board to find its less obvious flaws; Ninetales (BW: Dragons Exalted 19/124). Even in a deck lacking anything else to work with it, it is still a Gust Of Wind like effect thanks to Bright Look, allowing you to bypass Intimidating Mane (or anything Active unless backed by Garbotoxin). Your mileage may vary on how useful that is; even if there is something to promote and KO, its got to win you the game or buy you time for another counter, or else it ultimate does no good. Decks that have the many commonly played cards (though not all at once, usually) to attack effectively with Ninetales should definitely consider it (however small a niche that may be).
Example: Suicune PLB.
70 and weakness = 1HKO on Delphox.
This was what I was thinking of at teh time. It's easily tech-able; [W][C][C] is pretty cheap, for 70, in contrast to some of the newer cards.
easily techable would require you to run water energy, or prism/rainbow, it depends on the kind of thing you are pairing pyroar with but most of the time this will drop the overall consistency of the deck...
Pyroar should never be considered the main attacker in a deck. There should always be a big attacker backing Pyroar. (Or better yet, the other way around)
The point of Pyroar is to make your opponent spend time and resources powering up stuff to deal with it and then removing those resources from play with your main attacker. (It's a wall)
I mentioned that it "can" attack and its attack isn't too bad for a wall.
Being a Stage 1 makes it less effective as a "wall", however; the reason a deck can run (for example) a lone Sigilyph or Suicune (Safeguard versions) is because as a Basic Pokémon they require minimum resources to do their job. Pyroar will always require at least two cards, including a smaller Basic Pokémon that isn't a wall. Earlier Pyroar versus Genesect EX was brought up, and if it isn't a Pyroar focused deck (or already has a strong VirGen match-up), it isn't really going to improve things much; after all Red Signal can force a lone Litleo active in order for it to be OHKOed. Its best protection is going first as it is harder for the common elements of the deck (Virizion EX and Genesect EX) to quickly power up and shoot for the OHKO (pretty much impossible the same turn as a Red Signal while using proven, reliable tactics).
I think Pyroar can indeed function as a main attacker; not the only attacker but at least one of multiple the deck is focused upon. What I don't think will work is Quad Pyroar. In all cases, this is a metagame call; the same reason to expect a deck can't deal with Intimidating Mane is the same reason to expect a deck can't deal with Safeguard, Silver Mirror, etc.: it doesn't run anything it can effectively attack with that isn't blocked but adding counters for the situation increases overall loses more than it increases wins for the bad match-up. Quad Pyroar would work if the metagame favored it, I just don't think that will be a likely occurrence; I am waffling on whether or not a 1-1 or 2-2 line of Pyroar will be any more likely to matter. All the Porter style decks have the same problem; the more walls you include to cover different match-ups, the more unstable the entire deck becomes.
I am more than ready to find out that I am completely wrong about this; I am sharing my thoughts on the matter but am trying to avoid sounding like I "know" what will happen. Probably not doing the best job of it. =P
like yeah its ok. but i can tech around it in plasma. im palying plasma for nats i just dotn want pyroar to be decent in popularity so i wont have to play my tech for it.
The way it is seeming to go down is you have to either play a tech for it or play it yourself. It's like when Sigilyph came out, or Mewtwo Lv.X.
well alot of decks already have a tech for it lol. delphox baby ray, stoise, garb[DOUBLEPOST=1398920507][/DOUBLEPOST]3 big decks in format have answers to it also mega evos stop it
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