The Calm Before the Storm

Discussion in 'UG Article Talk' started by Crawdaunt, Jan 24, 2013.

  1. Crawdaunt

    Crawdaunt Active Member

    This is the thread for discussing the following article:

    The Calm Before the Storm

    Post your comments and questions below! Any and all honest feedback is much appreciated.
  2. Matt91_

    Matt91_ fire trainers lel

    Eh, not posted under your account? Just some stuff I'd like to comment on:

    - Andrew Krekeler did not, in fact, run Tool Scrapper.
    - You are right about Colress' translation.
  3. TechnoLegend

    TechnoLegend Active Member

    Awesome Article! great deck lists!

    i cought a few things,
    1.) you say Cobalion EX has a retreat cost of 1 but it is actually 2
    2.) your list shows 2 revive, but you say it includes 3, (just want to clarify for my testing)
    3.) the translation of plasma frigate on pokebeach says "All Pokemon that have Plasma Energy attached to them have no Weakness" but you say that "all plasma pokemon have no weakness" can you clarify this for me also, as i cant read japanes LOL

    Do you think Gothitelle will become more powerful? im concidering a Chandelure/Gothitelle/tropicalbeach/lazer/escaperope/switch/no energy deck, but dont want to waste my time if its something that could never work. Sounds awesome to me though.

    Im also looking forward to a Gardevoir/Gallade/Gothitelle (or mewtwo ex/giratina)/Ether list from you in a future Underground!
    Adam likes this.
  4. Crawdaunt

    Crawdaunt Active Member

    TechnoLegend
    Corrected the typos. Thanks for pointing them out! I settled on two revive for space issues, and as a result ran Dowsing Machine as my Ace Spec to make sure a third Revive was possible. Not that Dowsing Machine is a 4-0f like Junk Arm, but if necessary I can know to save it for the purpose of a 3rd Revive.

    Also, you are correct in the translation of Plasma Frigate. Pokemon with Plasma Energy have no weakness. It was late, I think I knew that. ^_^;

    Gothitelle eh? I don't think we can really cram any more Items into our already over-crammed decks, so I don't see it becoming more powerful due to a higher number of Items in decks. Plasma Frigate is a huge boon to the deck, but would have to be balanced with Tropical Beach.

    Chandy/Gothitelle/Switch Cards/Laser eh? To be honest, it sounds too complicated to work. You'd of course still want to run Darkrai + Dark Energy for free retreat. Even back in the Vileplume/Chandelure days, I was a fan of energy. Chandelure's Eerie Glow for 50 and burn+confuse was a really good trait for a deck to have. And it could be easily charged up under the protection of Plume. So I'd be tempted to run some energy in any Chandelure build I made (especially now that we have Blend GRPD). Sounds a very fun league deck!

    The fascination people have with Ether perplexes me. It is undoubtedly good, but Etherdex takes up 6-8 cards in your deck. Most decks simply don't have room for an 8 card energy accel engine. Etherdex essentially asks you to take any deck from the current format and cut 6-8 cards from it. That's why it will only really work in Big Basics, since evolution decks are already too crammed. You're not suggesting Gardevoir/Gallade/Goth with Etherdex right? If so, I'd say try constructing a decklist while keeping 4 candy and 1-2 Kirlias, and you'll see my point :(

    And as for Mewtwo/Giratina, I chose Colress Machine over Etherdex. It's difficult to find room for both. Also, Etherdex requires higher counts of basic energy, so it is not well suited for every deck. And realizing the correct effect of Plasma Frigate, would definitely recommend it in the deck.
  5. TechnoLegend

    TechnoLegend Active Member

    Thanks for the indepth response Crawdaunt! I agree with everything you have said. I think this is going to be a really crazy/fast/fun format to play in!
  6. Crawdaunt

    Crawdaunt Active Member

    Speed Darkrai eh?

    One thing I would comment on is that you don't really want a high count of Skyla if you're gunning for T1. I haven't really done enough testing to say if we should be building our decks expecting a T1 Night Spear, but if that's what we're after I'd cut Skyla.

    I'd also add that it's probably better to approach these basal archetypes with consistency in mind first. So stuff like Tool Scrapper is a bit unnecessary.

    Here would be my approach:

    Pokemon - 7

    4 Darkrai EX
    3 Sableye

    Trainers - 33

    4 Juniper
    4 N
    2 Bianca
    4 Random Receiver
    1 Computer Search

    4 Ultra Ball
    4 Dark Patch
    4 Ether
    4 Energy Switch
    3 Pokedex
    3 Pokemon Catcher
    2 Dark Claw

    Energy - 14

    14 Dark

    Things to note:
    1. If you're using Etherdex, you want a high count of basic energy in the deck to make use of it.
    2. If you're using Dark Patch, you want a high count of ways to discard energies in your starting hand.
    3. Computer Search is the Ace Spec of choice. You're looking for a first turn combo. Computer Search will always help with that, unlike other Ace Specs.
    4. Hypnotoxic Laser is important, but only with Virbank. It also doesn't really aid first turn Damage calcs (ex: hit for 100 or 120 instead of 90? Not that important).
    5. I opted for 4 Energy Switch to aid the T1 Night Spear.
    6. Without Hypnotoxic, I had no good answer to Eviolite. I've added Dark Claws for additional damage (which aids in sniping 170 HP EX's), and as a way to 2HKO Eviolited EX's. It's not that important for the T1 Damage calculations though.
    Of course, this deck currently has an autoloss to Quad Sigilyph and immediately loses to PlasmaKlang, so it will need to be teched. My tech of choice is once again Victini NVI 15, alongside some fires (not blends). That way they can be accelerated by Etherdex for the T1 Night Spear. Be sure when you add Victini NVI 15, that you don't take out any basics since you'll need a full bench.

    Edit: xD You took the Speed Darkrai part out of your post TechnoLegend. Now I look like I'm just talking to myself!

    Here UG, have a Speed Darkrai list, au Crawdaunt.
  7. TechnoLegend

    TechnoLegend Active Member

    Crawdaunt, i removed it because after i posted it i realized it was not relavant to your article, and figured that was best saved for somewhere else on this site. But... I am extreamly grateful for once agian your quick response on any and all questions posted to you. in the future i will make sure to NOT remove questions posted so you dont waste your time!

    But thank you, because i still think Darkrai EX decks are so much fun to play, and i dont have to get many new cards to keep it very competitive!
    and i really value your look and insight on deck development, especially on consistancy.

    ANd i wouldent say it has an autoloss to Quad.Sig.deck with those lazers in it. you could really just spam the heck out of them, posibly just include 1-2 enhanced hammers to keep the DCE from accelerating them to much
  8. Crawdaunt

    Crawdaunt Active Member

    Ah no, I just meant my deck list had an auto loss to sigilyph and plasmaklang. I wouldn't rely on enhanced and laser to deal with sigilyph though, and definitely not with plasmaklang. -2 dark claw, -3 dark, +2 victini nvi 15, +3 fire should do the trick to cover both matchups though.

    But I wouldn't test techs in a deck until I know they're necessary.
  9. ninjapikachu

    ninjapikachu Not all that ninja-like tbh

    Great information, I'm even more exited for my PR now :)
    I totally want to run Victini EX now. And get myself some Lugia EXs. And Dowsing Machine. And Hypnotoxic Laser, and - DARN IT *realises I can't afford a box*
    I like the idea of all the heavy Poison decks, it's been a while since we last heard about any Status thing other than Tynamo/Raikou EX FlipTini stalling :)
    Oh, and welcome back, Crobat Prime.
  10. MulePUP

    MulePUP SuperBoo's Dad

    Crawdaunt! I love the Victini Ex/Lugia Ex Deck! I played it today at league; we had a mini pre-states tourny today and it was really fun to play. This was a last minuted play/build for me and first time I played the deck was at the tourny. I knew at league there was a person that played a kling klang deck; so I chose bouffalant due to the DCE it was running. I didn't face him, but I have to say, most were impressed how quick it set up; and even when it lost, it was competitive to the end. My question is, what do you feel is the best non-EX to build into this deck and how many. I chose Energy Switch for my tech into this deck. Some suggestions that were given to me was Victini (V-create) and Terrakion (retaliate; and replacing the Energy Switch with Energy Searches). I really think this is the deck I want to play at states; it was super fun to play.
  11. Crawdaunt

    Crawdaunt Active Member

    Awesome! I'm glad to hear you enjoyed the deck so much. I rather liked it when I was playing around with it. In retrospect, I feel like perhaps the Laserbank combo wouldn't really add to the deck more than just including techs/consistency would bring to it. So in finding room for techs etc... I'd probably drop laserbank, giving me 6 slots.

    -4 HTL
    -2 Virbank

    +1 Victini NVI 15
    +1 Ultra Ball
    +2 Energy Switch
    +2 Eviolite

    Entering the format, I probably underestimated Eviolite a bit, but there are 2 extra slots in what I'm doing to the deck and more Energy Switch with so few Energy seems like a waste (though 2 will definitely facilitate plays). A 3rd would just boost consistency but I don't think it would add much to the overall power of the deck to be more consistent at switching energies. Either way, threw in two Eviolite but if you feel like something else would be appropriate I'd say go for it. You're also running a full 4 Skyla so you'll hopefully be able to nab that clutch Energy Switch when you need it. I was thinking about using 2 SAB as a counter-stadium instead.

    I wouldn't go for Terrakion since your energy line is already so divided. Adding Fighting to the mix and Energy Search would just muck things up and reduce the potential for a T1 Turbo Energize. Bouffalant is definitely a solid choice, but I wouldn't tech it for the Klinklang matchup. Bouffalant would be my way of disrupting other big-basic matchups so they have to take 7 prizes.

    At the same time, sticking with LaserBank isn't a terrible thing to do. :p I'll admit I haven't played with the deck since I wrote the article. But I certainly didn't mind it.

    One other tech consideration you can make is Giratina PLS/Blend GRPD. More special energies, yes... But Giratina is charged by Colress, takes advantage of DCE, and hits alongside Laserbank for OHKO's on 130 HP Pokemon. 110 against a Klinklang who will die by poison if they can't switch out. It's a non-EX attacker and hits respectable numbers, and works with the built-in energy accel.
  12. MulePUP

    MulePUP SuperBoo's Dad

    Thanks so much for the detailed reply. I didn't even think about SAB, but I really like that idea. I have to agree with for the Laser Bank combo, though it is nice, it really hasn't affected the outcome of any matches. Granted, I have played about ten matches with it (not probably near enough to say it is tested); having the sky arrow bridge counter would have impacted more. And I will say, I never was a fan of energy switch, but the last six months it has become one of my favorite tech cards. I will play with your suggestions, and again thanks, I still have some time to really tune some more. I will keep you posted!
  13. MulePUP

    MulePUP SuperBoo's Dad

    CRAWDAUNT!!!!

    One last update prior to going to states!

    Victini Ex - 4
    Lugia Ex - 3
    MewTwo - 2
    Bouffalant - 1
    Victini - 1 (V-create)
    Colress - 3
    Colress Machine - 4
    Escape Rope - 1
    Energy Switch 3
    N - 4
    Pokemon Catcher - 3
    Professor Juniper - 3
    Skyarrow Bridge - 2
    Skyla - 3
    Super Rod - 1
    Switch - 3
    Ultra Ball - 3
    Victory Piece - 1
    DCE - 4
    Plasma Energy - 4
    Fire Energy - 7

    This is the final list I have made based on the original you wrote about. I thought alot about the recommendations you gave in your recent reply. I am torn between the eviolite and teh skyarrow bridge. They both generally are searched out by a skyla, but I think I have gained the most benefit out of the skyarrow bridge being a virbank counter (or it could just be my league, most everyone has it in their decks). I ended up going with switches versus escape rope. I really like the escape rope, so I kept at least one, and thinking of dropping it for a fourth skyla. The escape rope seemed to affect the sniping ability of the Lugia EX for me the main reason I went with switches.

    Having two non basics versus just one has played better against the rogue style decks (which I think this can be considered in the same class); Sigilyph/KlingKlang. I tested it several times with various combinations; along with your advice on how bouffalant works, it seems to work really nice with one of each. My son plays a mean little crobat deck, hence the reason I have a super rod.

    Today at league was the first day I played with the above version with people other than my son. Played mainly darkrai decks today, but most was impressed with it. Went 3-0 versus them (speed darkrai and darkrai hydreigon). On all three games, I was able to have victory piece out turn one, and when that happens, it destroys the intial strategy setup. Played another couple of big basic decks and went 2-0. I was glad how it setup on these due to it was horrible opening hands and had a real hard time getting the Lugia EX snipe going.

    The biggest thing I am having to learn is when to 1) Turbo Accelator or 2) Intensifying Burn.

    Thanks again for the great article and deck idea. It is a lot of fun to play.
  14. Crawdaunt

    Crawdaunt Active Member

    I'm glad you're enjoying the deck so much!

    Based on the list you've posted, I do have a couple minor concerns.

    With only 13 total supporters, I'd be worried about drawing dead in a tournament like spt's multiple times. Especially combined with an opponent's N. I'd look to up that to at least 14. With only 7 fires in the deck, how do you find 3 energy switch? I'd say dropping an energy switch or an energy can make room for that 14th supporter. I'd keep at least 7 fire in the deck to make sure you can turbo accelerate if you need to.

    As a comparison I try to find room for 15 supporters when possible, and so does Jay I believe.

    With only 11 basics and 3 ultra ball, 3 colress seems like a lot crippling colress starts. A deck like Darkrai doesn't bench basics all too quickly, so that 3 colress flat out frightens me :p I'd drop to at least 2, possibly just one. A 4th skyla and a Bianca might work well. Skyla is important to maximize T1 victory piece. But perhaps in your testing you've found that 4 clogs the deck in the late game, and a turbo accel is a fine start anyways.

    One tech you could consider (with a higher skyla count) is an energy search instead of a fire energy. This would let a skyla on first turn turn into either an intensifying burn or turbo accel if victory piece is prized.

    Good luck at SPT's! This reminds me of my Drop It Like It's Hot rogue last year. Genuinely competitive fire deck at SPT's, but I don't know if I'll be playing it myself >.>
  15. MulePUP

    MulePUP SuperBoo's Dad

    Thanks. I havent had many games where I was unable to victory piece Turn 1. Had a couple of times it was prized; but I have found that when it is prized, the best way to use Vicitini is straight Turbo Acceleration. But a fourth skyla is needed, mainly for an end game catcher. The one card I was misusing the most was MewTwo; but I think I resolved that issue this weekend.I have been able to tell in some of my testing, that an energy search would be nice. I am going to toy around with it some this week based on your suggestions and I will try and update you on how I do this saturday with your creation!