The Final Four – What You’ll Encounter at Nationals

Discussion in 'UG Article Talk' started by HenryP, Jun 25, 2013.

  1. HenryP

    HenryP Member

  2. superw8

    superw8 Did you?

    Great article, but can you explain why you like Darkrai the least out of the top tier decks?
  3. HenryP

    HenryP Member

    I thought I explained it with "it’s not enjoyable to play or testing as well as the other big three".
  4. What are your thoughts on the Plasma VS Darkrai Matchup? Who do you think has the advantage?
  5. AGGarchomp

    AGGarchomp Active Member

    To be honest, I was not very impressed. The article feels a little rushed, as if you only spent a couple of days on it. The deck discussion was nothing new, basically lists for the top contenders of this format. For example, your argument that Darkrai wasn't as good a choice as the others was a little weak:

    "It's not enjoyable to play as the other big three"
    I can understand why you would say this, but I fail to see how an opinion on how fun the deck is related to it's weakness in competitive play, which is what you're trying to convince the reader of.

    "It's not testing as well as the other big three"
    This in itself is not a compelling argument. Without an explanation, the huge question that presents itself is "Why isn't it as good?". There are multiple reasons a deck is inferior, but they are mostly for different reasons. Is it not fast enough? Not consistent enough? Is its damage output too low? Are its attackers to fragile? etc.

    "I don't feel it's as safe of a play"
    Again, the question that would follow this sort of statement is "why"? But, instead of explaining further, you continue straight to your list. To make a claim that will stand, I feel like the reason behind your claim should be explained, rather than leaving the thought as a standalone statement.

    Then, for your list explanation, the parts that stand out to me are your explanations for unusual card choices, and lack of discussion of others. You wrote a few sentences each about your single Keldeo and single Mr. Mime.

    "Many lists have gone up to 2 Keldeo, but I've felt that it takes up too much room and lowers consistency"
    The explanation you provided for not playing two Keldeo is that they don't make Gothitelle an overwhelmingly favorable matchup, and that that you doubt Gothitelle will be widely played, as players with access to Beaches are more likely to run Keldeo. However, without a second Keldeo, Gothitelle is highly unfavorable for Darkrai, correct? What would a Gothitelle deck do against a Darkrai deck that had 2 Keldeos out, as well as a loaded Darkrai or Absol? You list Gothitelle as one of the top four deck choices for nats, but you still think it is better not to play one more card that can tip the matchup in Darkrai's favor, even if it isn't an "autowin"? That seems a little strange to me. Any card that doesn't boost consistency or get the deck attacking will lower consistency, but that's pretty much given. How does your argument that the second Keldeo takes up too much space stand when the list you gave runs Mr. Mime, which has disputable effectiveness as a game changer? It's only use as a tech would be against other Darkrai decks, as TDK can still one-shot Darkrais with Blizzard Burn+Laserbank+3 Deoxys, Bench Barrier or not. But even against other Darkrais, they would have to snipe the same Darkrai twice in order to knock it out with one attack. In that time, the Darkrai player could easily start attacking with the Darkrai being sniped, the opposing Darkrai could be KO'd, the player could use a Max Potion on an already damaged Darkrai, or a player could use N. I find it hard to believe that Mr. Mime deserves an undisputed place in the deck, when it offers no huge advantage against the deck you are using it for. I think a reader would typically have been more interested in an explanation of your Supporter line, which has 3 Random Receiver, and your take on the Bianca vs. Colress question.

    I could go on about the TDK section, how you didn't mention Landorus BW79, Lugia, Keldeo, or other possible techs people might have questions about, or the lack of explanation on where the focus should be in Gothitelle, the lack of matchup data, Mewtwo vs. BKEX discussion in Blastoise, etc, but I think my point has already been made. To me, it seems like there is no in-depth coverage of any deck, just 6 1/2 deck lists, and a few notes on each of them. To be frank, that's not what I as a reader am looking for in an UG article. That's what I'm saying with this post. I know you are a fantastic player to be asked to write for UG in the first place, and I know this is your first UG article, so I apologize if I offended you in any way.

    I would like to add that I don't claim to know better than you card choice, deck list, tech, or matchup-wise by any means, but I'm simply presenting my reasons for being disappointed.
  6. HenryP

    HenryP Member

    The point of the article wasn't for me to convince you on what to play it was just my take on each deck. If you like Darkrai and it's been working well for you that's something you should keep in mind before blindly following what I think. I gave my opinion on the deck, of course I'm biased one way or the other but the point wasn't for me to talk about my opinion in depth. i emphasize later in the article that you need to test and chose what works for you. I'll guarantee you that I won't be playing Darkrai at Nationals but that doesn't mean that anyone should use that in their decision on playing it or not.

    I'm just not sure how useful the 2nd Keldeo will be if probably only 2-3% of the field will be running Gothitelle. I would much rather have Mr. Mime which is good in mirror and against Plasma's which I expect at least 70% of the field to be combined. If you expect more Gothitelle play a 2nd Keldeo! Again, I'm not telling you how to play the deck these lists are examples. You can have your opinion but that doesn't mean mine is wrong.

    The lists are there to show you how the decks work. If you're looking for an explanation on why certain counts of a card are in the deck there are plenty of other underground articles that do that. I'm trying to "help you choose which one fits you best".

    Thank you for the feedback though. You made a few good points on things I need to improve on future articles, and I will keep those in mind.
  7. shirokuma

    shirokuma Member

    In sg nats, double keldeo was what i believed helped wilson best two gothlock decks in the top cut so the only reason i would think of for not running 2 keldeos in darkrai is not expecting to see goth at all!
  8. remixed658

    remixed658 Member

    Well I lost to Wilson in the finals. All I can say that goth can easily win double keledo in darkrai if u don't draw dead/ prize too many impt stuff. Anw great article Henry! Sinapore actually had players that went worlds the past 2 years hence we got our hands on some beaches.. We even had 2 top 16 last year at worlds! :)
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2013
  9. AGGarchomp

    AGGarchomp Active Member

    I'm sorry if it sounded like I was telling you what to think or what I think. I was trying to give ideas to expand on the content, and I picked Darkrai because it had the shortest section and the Mime tech felt the most iffy to me. I think I also misinterpreted the purpose of your article, so I'm sorry for that as well.
  10. HenryP

    HenryP Member

    Yeah I would like to point out that Jeremy beat 3 of them in swiss. 2 keldeo doesn't make it an auto win. As for the worlds players I probably worded that wrong, I was comparing the amount of players who earned beaches to the amount in the US and Canada.
  11. dangerhighvolatge

    dangerhighvolatge New Member

    Do you have any discarding issues with 4 ultra and 4 ser? When I've ran that I find my hand sizes get too low and I run out of cards to discard. What are your thoughts on a couple enegy retreival in blastoise and running 1-2 less SER? Also have you looked at super rod in kyurem / deoxys / keldeo? It seems more versitile and worthwhile to me than revive in the deck due to it returning 3 cards to your deck. It wouldn't put kyurems immeditately into play, though.

    I agree somewhat with AGGarchomp by the way. For future articles more detail on decks and why you left out certain cards in decks (such as in plasma: float stone, lugia, landorus promo, keldeo, only 3 switch, etc) would make the article a lot more insightful and useful for players. I get that the point isn't to tell us "you have to play this cause I do", but you should at least be able to justify your card choices. Matchup details within the "final four" is also something that I felt was missing. It's your first article though, so don't take what I've said negatively. I'm just trying to explain how I feel you could improve in your next article.
    Adam likes this.
  12. Adam

    Adam Noice bruv, innit.

    I very much appreciate the honest and constructive feedback AGGarchomp and dangerhighvolatge! I'm hoping Henry can be a regular writer in the future so your feedback is very helpful for him to improve. Thanks!
  13. daGlaceon

    daGlaceon Still Can't See


    You get that a lot.

    I liked the change of pace and frankly, this article was for what to play, which is the primary decision (choosing the deck happens before making the list in most cases). A follow up article (aka what comes out tomorrow) would best build on this one, so like once you've made a choice (as helped by this article) the next article would be a list based one.

    If that makes sense.


    Awesome job Henry.

    -Alex
    TechnoLegend likes this.