The Freeze Format: Raiden the Hype

Discussion in 'UG Article Talk' started by Crawdaunt, May 9, 2013.

  1. Crawdaunt

    Crawdaunt Active Member

    This is the thread for discussing the following article:

    The Freeze Format: Raiden the Hype

    Post your comments and questions below! Any and all honest feedback is much appreciated.
  2. Obro

    Obro New Member

    Great in-depth article!
    Your blastoise list are only a few cards away from mine.
    I haven't had time to test all those decks, but even though, based on my experience playing against them, I agree with a lot of your list choices.
    I'm sure those lists will save me a lot of playtesting time, preparing for our Nationals, which is already the 8th June.
    Thanks a lot ^_^
  3. Pokepower22

    Pokepower22 2012 Senior UK Nats Winner, Masters Regs Win!

    Nice Article! I agree with alot of your lists and like that you went for straight consistency in your Plasma Basics list.
  4. lucarioAdventure1

    lucarioAdventure1 i swear on me mum

    As much as I usually like your works, I wanted to hit the desk so many times when reading this article...

    I can list at least 4 examples of either bad cards in the decks, or bad advice. Now I do not in any way criticize you as a person or as a general writer (because your work is usually pretty high quality) but there were so many times I wanted to click off of the article :/ (no offense to anyone else who liked the article itself btw)
  5. Crawdaunt

    Crawdaunt Active Member

    I'd love to hear what you are referring to! Be brutally honest if you feel like I am just flat-out bad. I find it much more constructive to hear enthusiastic objection than polite dissent.
    Last edited: May 9, 2013
  6. jbcheshire

    jbcheshire Member

    Great article as usual!
    And I am one who would like to see your take on a "standard" post PF Garbodor list...
  7. lucarioAdventure1

    lucarioAdventure1 i swear on me mum

    Well it comes down to several things in the lists.

    Darkrai: As much as I love Absol, 3 is waaaaaaaaay too much, and 2 Sableye is way too little. Absol messes up your first turn so much, and you want to open Sableye so much its cringe worthy. 1 Colress is also so bad, since at most you should have a 3 guy bench, if you have more than that then prepare to get screwed over very quickly.

    Eels: 2 Keldeo + 4 Float Stone. Why? Just why? I understand the whole free retreat idea, but all it takes is Hypnotoxic Laser to completely screw you over as your opponent proceeds to sweep your face in. (Tool Scrapper ruins it as well)

    Blastoise: 1 Float Stone; You. Don't. Have. Room. If you can honestly tell me your list runs consistently every game with a lot of the time a dead card in your deck, let me know. (Not to mention you need more consistency in general)

    Garbodor. I have so much hate here...

    Ho-Oh EX. In a Garbodor deck. First of all I don't even want to know how the person using this originally won the regional with the same concept but it flat out doesn't work. Ho-Oh on its own is horrfically bad in a lot of matchups (Plasma Basics and Blastoise being the bane of its existance) and for the most part you'll rely on Garbodor so much more often in more games.

    Trubbish PLS 65. Would you honestly tell me that Tool Drop wins you more games than Garbage Collection? I didn't think so...

    The second list is also pretty awkward for one different reason.

    Thundurus EX and Plasma Badge. I saw your point about mid-game energy acceleration but you honestly don't have the time to be running a gimmick such as that... Plasma Badge does nothing for you if Thundurus is prized, makes Garbodor stalling even easier (especially since there's only 2 Float Stone) and it doesn't do that much in most scenarios that you can plausibly do that combo.

    "The deck is also neutered by Garbotoxin, so it only adds one more deck to the field that will allow Garbodor to thrive."

    Excuse me? You are honestly going to tell me that Garbodor will do better because it reduces Deoxys EX's damage output... I don't mean to sound rude but that is very undertested. What will Garbodor do, when Kyurem and Thundurus still can attack freely and you've wasted bench spaces on a pointless ability. (and tool)

    Now I am all up for further discussion, but I dislike the lists mentioned above, I dislike the logic behind it as well. But I am up for discussing! Its what the forums for after all :)
  8. Crawdaunt

    Crawdaunt Active Member

    lucarioAdventure1 Thanks for the honest reply :) I can at least answer this wholely now.

    Darkrai: 3 Absol I have found to be integral to my success. Against Blastoise or RayEels, Absol is efficient, it's strong, and it only gives up one prize. It is a card that swings poor situations, and a card that allows mid-game comebacks by not giving your opponent the option to finish the job by taking quick prizes in pairs. Against Plasma Basics, the third Absol really hampers your opponent's ability to just play down their bench and get additional attackers going. By having a heavy Absol presence, you force their Kyurems to Blizzard Burn more (as Absol is a non-EX), which will mess them up at some point due to the nature of being unable to attack afterward. Their 3 Pokemon bench is likely 2 Deoxys and an attacker. What does the 2 Deoxys really do to you? Not much. They either make Absol strong by benching a 4th, or they play with only 2 effective Pokemon in the matchup. 3rd Absol is a "my opponent doesn't have any good options" card. I'd recommend trying it to see how you like it. With 3 Absol and 3 Dark Claw, I dropped the Enhanced Hammers because I found I was able to effectively respond to my opponent without having to Hammer their Energy.

    Eels: I felt crazy even building the deck when I was testing it out. But it stood up to the test. Try it. If you're using Laser stall as an excuse, they have to Catcher the Keldeo and THEN hope for a 25% chance. G'luck. Not to mention the deck has a second Keldeo it can use in tough times. And Scrapper sounds like a theorymon problem, but do you see more than 1 Scrapper in any of my lists? Do you have more than one in yours? It's not a big issue. The Float Stone is as useful as a Switch on the turn it was played anyways. Anything past that is icing on the cake. So Scrapper is a moot point. Admittedly, the thing I hate about the list is the inability to turn off Virbank, which I have found annoying primarily in the Plasma matchup.

    Blastoise: 16 Draw outs on first turn is where I find my balance. I have 13 Supporters, 2 Beach and a Comp Search. Any more and I feel like I run into too many mid-game. Any less is bad (as we clearly both agree). Float Stone has helped me immensely as a Skyla target, as well as a mid-game drop. Float Stone is anything but dead. As I mentioned, if it saves you attaching 2 Energy to Keldeo in order to retreat, it was just as good as Retrieval. Anything past that is icing on the cake. This plays in heavily against Garbodor and Klinklang. Garbodor loses a key attempt to Catcher-stall. Klinklang can't run you as thin on Energy by forcing costly discards. Against other decks, it is still good.

    Ho-Oh: Bidier's list is not my opinion. Keep in mind this was BLW-PLS, so Plasma Basics wasn't around yet. But Ho-Oh was a fairly brilliant tech in the deck actually. In a metagame where Laser provides the ability for cards to 2HKO, Ho-Oh comes in (with fighting resistance in BLW-PLS format) and says "I have a backup attacker out of nowhere, deal with it." What's even more hilarious is using Rebirth, and then putting Garbodor up to OHKO Klinklangs. As I said, that wasn't my list, nor my opinion. But Ho-Oh was a brilliant, versatile card in the deck. And considering it went 11-0 throughout the weekend, you can't exactly call it dumb luck. Not to mention synergy with Scramble Switch.

    Plasma Garbodor: 10% of your games, Thundurus will be prized. The other 90%, fair game. Your deck deals low damage outputs, and often doesn't properly 2HKO. Mid-game, you can find many situations where you only need to deal 30-60 damage to finish off the KO and take your prize. This is when you bring in Thundurus. However, I acknowledge the list is a rough concept. The idea was to promote the versatility of using Plasma Badge in Garbodor as an alternate tool.

    Clearly I have had a different experience than you playing Cobalion EX/Garbodor. Plasma Basics is not amused by only being able to hit for 30 while having finite specific Energies targeted. This, while trying to charge up Kyurem (the deck's only worthwhile attacker under Garbotoxin), only to have Kyurem to go down to Cobalion NVI and ruin the last few turns worth of effort, leaving your field desolate, crying for Energy.



    ... Would be my response to each of your disagreements :) Your thoughts?
    TechnoLegend and Empoleon1107 like this.
  9. jbcheshire

    jbcheshire Member

    Good clarification and I agree with them myself... As always this is always subject to personal opinions...
  10. cabd

    cabd Taking over for Tamoo as the girly looking mod.

    No response to the choice of trubbish?
  11. jbcheshire

    jbcheshire Member

    His choice is due to his version has 70hp whereas most others have the NVI version that only has 60hp. And like he said an attack for 30 and a HTL can knock out the NVI Trubbish too easily. You can play a mix of Trubbish's if you wanted..
  12. cabd

    cabd Taking over for Tamoo as the girly looking mod.

  13. Crawdaunt

    Crawdaunt Active Member

    Mainly because of 70 HP. Tool Drop is just pointing out the best 70 HP trubbish. The primary reason is the 70 HP. Now that more combos than Laserbank exist to hit for 60 damage on T1, I am less excited about Garbage Collection. Though running one as a tech is something I'd be up for. Don't get me wrong, I kept Durant in KK. But if I can avoid running 60 HP, right now I am choosing to do so.
  14. 765Bro

    765Bro Hibiki...~

    I didn't really agree with much of the article. Firstly, TDK is much stronger than you give it credit for and your opinions are a little all over the place. At first you call the Team Plasma cards incompetent, recognize it as Tier-1 and a possible BDIF in your own analysis, only to go on and rant about it's supposedly undeserved hype and even claiming it won't manage to place even in the Top 8 of Nationals; Your reasoning mostly being that it has no auto-wins (But no bad match-ups) and that Garbador is supposed to be huge competition.

    With new and better tools lying about, especially a huge and vulnerable trust in Float Stone, Tool Scrapper is becoming commonplace even as a two-of. You can easily fit two Tool Scrappers into TDK as well, but that's not my point. For Garbador to even threaten TDK, it has to win match-ups against many other decks such as Big Basics, Darkrai, and Rayeels which are not much more equipped to handle Garbador as it becomes a more legitimate threat. Garbador is truly a Rogue. It only succeeds when it's unprepared for, and simply by the effectiveness of Float Stone and Plasma Badge people will begin to stock up on Tool Scrapper. Garbador still doesn't have a partner that is truly threatening to our top-tier attackers. (Darkrai, Landorus, Keldeo, Rayquaza, etc.)

    You're right: TDK is decimated by Garbador with Cobalion. (Kind of. Personally, I see Deoxy's +40 damage as icing on the cake, not the actual engine. But your deck list runs enough counters...) But it's too unreliable against the rest of the metagame in a tournament setting to pose a constant threat.

    I would be surprised if any Garbador deck placed in the Top 8 of Nationals.

    I also agree with lucarioAdventure1. My general rule of thumb is that if you're attacking with an underevolved Basic, you've probably already lost the game. I'd rather be able to open with Garbage Collection, and with your high-Basic count you aren't easily donked.
  15. ottawacollector

    ottawacollector New Member

    Personally, I really liked the article myself. I do admit I'm still quite new and learning in the process but reading through different opinions and having these discussions here is invaluable. It's always useful to read everyone's thoughts and opinions.

    The same Ho-oh garbodor deck also won Singapore Regionals, the whole point of the deck is to counter the meta while having your opponent guessing what's in the deck. The whole deck is full of techs and without knowing what the deck runs during a match, it's extremely hard to counter, every card in there is precisely chosen. I wouldn't dismiss the deck without learning the why's behind each of the choices. I had the opportunity to learn from Matt Koo and speak with Jit Min who are the original collaborators of the deck and they've explained it quite well. If you knew what it ran, I can see it not doing as well but expectations in that deck while playing it can really surprise you. My son lost his two games to Matt (great learning experience) with a surprise rebirth once for the attack and the next time for a rebirth, switch, scramble switch to Bouffalant for the win. The same creators of this deck also created the quad-Entei to win Canadian Nats last year.

    I'd agree with Crawdaunt in regards to Float Stone in Blastoise, very frequently, we've used Energy Retrieval for that extra 2 energy for the retreat. Having an extra "bonus" is just icing on top of the cake.

    lucarioAdventure1, since I'm relatively new, can you help me understand why at most we should have a 3 guy bench in Darkrai? Is the worry about catcher/stall and having to attach energy to retreat (thus splitting up the energy)?
  16. Crawdaunt

    Crawdaunt Active Member

    765Bro, I can see how the intro is a bit all over the place. The "incompetent" comment is about team plasma and is more pre-amble mindless introduction. And the hype plasma basics has gotten has been a bit over the top. Like that article which gave it an 85-15 RayEels matchup. I've seen a lot of crazy opinions which are pretty in-tune with that. My effort is to bring things down to earth and say, "this is a good deck, might even be the BDIF, but it's not broken." And I maintain that, based on its inherent character traits, I would not be surprised to see it miss top 8 at nats. I wouldn't expect it to, but I certainly would not be shocked if it didn't.

    I don't expect 2-of tool scrappers at the start of Battle Roads. And I don't expect to see 2-of Tool Scrappers at Nats either. The card doesn't do that much even if you do scrap their float stone. There are so many better cards I can put in my deck which help MY strategy than the 2nd scrapper.

    Prepare for Garb, you win. Don't, you lose. I agree. But even at Regionals one dedicated Garbodor deck won. In a metagame well prepared for it, and a metagame full of Landorus/Mewtwo (it's worst natural matchup).

    And my point in introducing the BC Regionals-winning deck was to illustrate that thin techs can deal. I'd add, bit of a pet peeve. The deck is a Tornadus/Mewtwo deck with techs. It's not a Garbodor deck, nor a Ho-oh deck. The backbone which provided metagame coverage was Tornadus/Mewtwo (just for anyone calling it a garb deck).

    And as I mentioned, the primary reason for tool drop was the 70 HP. My (perhaps too lengthy) discussion was just explaining why it is worthwhile to choose tool drop over any other 70 HP trubbish. I suppose I went on too long about the attack, because it is true, you're probably not going to attack with trubbish too often. But with Kyurem, deoxys, absol, thundurus all able to hit for 60 easily, I prefer 70 HP right now. I might find myself going back to garbage collection if I miss it too much. Don't get me wrong, I love garbage collection. 70 HP is my metagame call.
  17. 765Bro

    765Bro Hibiki...~

    Crawdaunt

    Fair enough. I'm not sure how I feel about the statistics of TDK yet, but 85-15 does seem fairly outrageous for no clear advantage. (Like weakness or especial magic numbers) Even so, it's not right to counteract that argument by tilting as extremely opposite as possible and hoping that your reader's will find a conclusion in the middle you are really trying to speak for. It's just like politics. It's a really good deck, and I know that for all 3 Enhanced Hammers and Cobalion-EX I run I can barely keep pace with TDK. I have to assert that I completely disagree with your estimation on it's performance at Nationals, and leave it that. We'll see.

    If Garbador rises to power as you predict, the Tool Scrappers will climb to accomodate. The format has many good tools and I have a feeling a few Plasma Badge decks might take a few Battle Roads by surprise- the response will be more Tool Scrappers like the inclusion of Bouffalant or even Meloetta BCR when Sigilyph become commonplace. I might be a little bit off on this one as it's more a personal preference. I don't like holding onto my Tool Scrappers to discard two tools at a time, so I instead run two. It's sneakier that way too; Run 4 Catcher and 2 Tool Scrappers, and you can cause them some real Float Stone-induced headaches. I'm not sure if this is a trend that will catch on, but I know if that Garbodor becomes a threat it's an easy solution.

    As you said: Prepare for Garb and you win. If Garbodor is ever a threat, it's so easy to slot in just two more cards and improve your match-up 50%.

    That's fine, I see your dilemma. Explain the choice of Tool Drop Trubbish in-depth without over-exaggerating it's use. Fair enough, but I still hold out that early Garbage Collection is a very effective boost to the otherwise-sluggish Garbador deck. But it's your choice to guard yourself against the growing baseline of 1-for-60, and I respect it.
  18. Crawdaunt

    Crawdaunt Active Member

    765Bro, I shall work on that! Writing articles and communicating your point can be tough! This is why I love feedback. And yeah, me saying that about Nats is just my prediction. I'd also add it's very safe the way I've phrased it... so I can't really be wrong. Which is kind of a cop-out :p

    I just mean to say that the deck is built around specific combos, and once it starts getting played in official tournaments rather than in local testing groups and shop tourneys, I expect more true numbers to emerge. I'm also getting ahead of myself and predicting it to do very well at Battle Roads (probably most wins) and becoming the Nationals soft-BDIF, with people building decks to counter it. But... I'm getting into like... layers upon layers of prediction and I should probably just leave it at inherent characters of the deck as my justification for the statement ^_^;

    Also, ottawacollector, I agree. I find the kinds of exchanges that go on in detailed objections to articles, to be much more useful than the articles themselves. It's very easy to write a standard decklist, and very easy to write about matchups. What you don't get is the nitty gritty that is brought up in people's playtesting. I want everyone who disagrees with my points to come forward and yell at me! That way I'm informed on potential metagame perceptions about decks and lists. And if I feel like my points are valid in the face of criticism, I'm no worse off, and I'm more informed on my competition. Nothing bad about that!
  19. Parenting101

    Parenting101 Active Member

    Great article Mark! I like your version of Plasma Basics being "consistant". I love consistency and think that if you're going the Kyurem direction, go your route. If you're going the Lugia EX route, use the same formula. 2-3 Lugia EX and 3-4 DCE for consistency.

    I judged Bidier's Regional Championship match and saw how much skill it took to play with all of those single card counts. I am definitely not at that level yet, so I choose consistency for now. :)

    I do have to question Garbodor's playability though. I feel that Darkrai EX with Dark Claw will eat right through Garbodor (Unless it is highly on Landorus EX). And I don't feel that Cobalion EX alone, can discard enough special energies in Plasma Basics fast enough, to stop a Kyurem from taking out Garbodor's attackers (Unless it is highly focused on Cobalion EX and Cobalion NVI). Garbodor does help against Blastoise and Klinklang obviously. I am curious about trying Garbodor with some sort of energy acceleration to take the target off of Garbodor. Colress Machine/Plasma attackers, Dark Patch/Darkrai EX/Absol/Sableye? Probably not enough room for these ideas, but they are just ideas right now. ;)

    You are absolutely correct about the "article talk" in the forums. I love reading everyone's different opinions. Quite often, it gets a reader to try something new that they didn't think would work. And one important note is that everyone has their own play style and opinion. Some things that work for some players may not work for other players and vice versa. So comments should be taken as "personal opinions" versus "absolute truths".

    Thanks for taking the time and effort that it takes to write an article like this. Keep it up.
    TechnoLegend and ottawacollector like this.
  20. ChampBuster

    ChampBuster John O.

    The only problems that I see are with the Eels and Garbodor lists. I don't like the inclusion of Keldeo EX to your Eels list as I would rater have the three Eels and a second Ray + a free retreater on the bench. I understand the logic behind it, but using 2-3 Skyarrow Bridge and Dowsing Machine you can keep the Rayquaza madness going. ( I plan on writing an article about RayEels and Quad Kyurem soon).

    Three Plasma Badge made me scratch my head when looking at your Garbodor list. There is no reason that it is in there other than for Thundurus EX and Garbotoxin. With the large amount of tools to choose from I would have liked to see Exp Share in there instead as it would help with keeping energy on the board for your Cobalions.

    I really like your Blastoise list and I will say that it can be really tough to come up with some new stuff in this stale format. Props for doing so.