The Freeze is ON

Discussion in 'UG Article Talk' started by badganondorf, Apr 23, 2013.

  1. badganondorf

    badganondorf Active Member

    This is the thread for discussing the following article:

    The Freeze is ON

    Post your comments and questions below! Any and all honest feedback is much appreciated.
  2. lucarioAdventure1

    lucarioAdventure1 i swear on me mum

    Very nice article (once again) Esa, although out of curiosity would you swap out the Victini EX and Victory Piece for anything if you wanted? I'm just a touch skeptical of dead drawing Victory Piece late-game with no Victini to use it on
  3. Pokepower22

    Pokepower22 2012 Senior UK Nats Winner, Masters Regs Win!

    Really nice article Esa, brilliant look ahead! When playing with Plasma Basics, what do you feel about having a full 4 Deoxys EX?
  4. Sti

    Sti New Member

    Great article Esa! I noticed at the beginning of your article that you mentioned lando mewtwo was for sure tier 2 now? I was just curious as to why? the plasma match, from my testing (which is probably much lesser than yours') seems to be 50/50. I understand kyurem hits lando for weakness, but as u already stated mewtwo handles him quit well. Also, in order for the deoxys return ko you need two very particular energy cards attatched, which i believe would be harder to stream than mewtwo dce laser or mewtwo dece energy switch.
  5. Reshiphlosion

    Reshiphlosion The Swarm

    Nice article! Although I do have a question, why is their a lack of energy switch in your Darkrai/Absol list (and to an extent your anti meta darkrai deck)? I've always thought that it was too important to drop and while you run scramble switch to help out, I'm a bit paranoid about dropping them from a darkrai list. Is there something that I'm blind to that makes them unplayable? Or was it just space issues? Thanks :)
  6. Crawdaunt

    Crawdaunt Active Member

    That was a really good article Esa. I found it very interesting to see your approach, and I honestly think this jumped me ahead two weeks of testing. One quirky thing I've been trying out is Exxegcute as a card for Blastoise to alleviate Super Energy Retrieval discards, and harmful late-game N's preventing you from being able to use SER or Dowsing/Comp Search. I haven't logged enough games to say whether I think it's worth it, but I am curious on your thoughts.

    And yes... ugh It's adding an extremely donkable starter.
    Pokepower22 likes this.
  7. badganondorf

    badganondorf Active Member

    Whoa, already a lot of excellent questions!

    lucarioAdventure1: You are correct, Victini EX can get pretty useless in some games if the Victory Piece is prizesd, but I want to emphasize that it's a very crucial part of the deck's early game plan against e.g. Plasma match-up. HOWEVER, if you don't find Victini EX good enough, I would advise putting a Scramble Switch and Energy Switch or Doswing Machine and Energy Switch. I'll talk more about Energy Switch later on in this reply.

    PokePower22: That's one of the things, I forgot to mention in the article! Great question. At the moment, I'm leaning towards 4 Deoxys EX in case of prizes, but my big brother, who has done a lot of testing with me, is a huge fan of 3 Deoxys EX. I like consistency and in some match-ups you just need the 3 Deoxys EX to the bench to be able to OHKO things with Lugia EX/Kyurem EX and when you need all of them on the bench, playing 3 is highly risky. 150 is pretty magical number against many match-ups. However, if the metagame is starting to trend more towards Plasma mirrors, I think that it's safe to cut the Deoxys EXs to 3.

    Sti: Great question! Big Basics won't be going anywhere, but it will struggle a lot. I'm interested how high counts of Kyurems and Landorus EXs do you run in your Plasma/Big Basics, because I think it affects highly the match-up? In the end, Kyurem is the best attacker in that match-up no matter what your opponent throws at you. Also, as Deoxys EX needs the certain energy attached to it, in the end Mewtwo EX also needs DCE and Fighting energy attached to AND Laser in order to deal with Kyurem. I have noticed that whenever you can avoid the OHKO of Kyurem EX, Plasma has a huge lead . Big Basics also don't have a proper answer against 2 energy Deoxys EX. What I can say for sure is that decklists like this: http://thetopcut.net/2013/04/17/pookas-wisconsin-regionals-report/ will disappear completely.

    ReshiPlosion: It's all about the adjusting to the metagame. Absol is very easily loaded (no need for Energy Switch) and in those builds, I have decided that Enhanced Hammers are more important than Energy Switches. What I have always wondered is that why people play 3-4 Energy Switches in Darkrai EXs, because the deck doesn't necessarily need so many. Scramble Switch is my favorite card in Darkrai EX decks, but yeah the issue is the space. If you want to add Energy Switches to deck, I believe that the Enhanced Hammers are the only cards, which numbers you can decrease. And maybe one Dark Claw depending on your metagame.

    Mark: Good to hear! It really was my point of the article that people wouldn't have to test the basics of the new format, so I'm happy that I succeeded on that!

    Exeggcute, ugh. I love the card, but it's 30 HP is just... Well, 30 HP! Since the Basic counts in the current decks are very low, you'll be starting with it at least once per tournament and that at least one game will probably lead to your loss. I do see the arguments for playing Exeggcute, like getting SER playable after 1 card N, btu since I haven't tested it, I can only theory. But for me the donk factor is a huge turn-off, due to me loving consistency. I think Exeggcute would be more playable in e.g. Empoleon, because it runs more Basics.
    Reshiphlosion likes this.
  8. Crawdaunt

    Crawdaunt Active Member

    But then you're playing Empoleon! xD Yeah, I have to log more games in with the deck, because for the most part exeggcute hasn't done anything. I haven't even seen it! So perhaps that's telling of what kind of use you can expect out of a one-of Pokemon you don't really want to search for.

    But the theory power is pretty good! I dunno, I feel like exeggcute is a good card. But I felt the same way about Ditto.
  9. quack

    quack Member

    how do you feel about crystal wall+max potion in blastiose?
  10. Reshiphlosion

    Reshiphlosion The Swarm

    Okay thanks! I'm going to try and squeeze in a couple energy switch since it makes max potion even better, but I'll be using your list as a backbone, thanks again! :D
  11. grimlaw

    grimlaw Member

    Nice read as always. Seems like cobalion ex, should have a home somewhere. Maybe a big basic variant? Attacks for kyurem's weakness and discards special energy.
    jbcheshire likes this.
  12. Starmetroid

    Starmetroid Member

    Cobalion/Tornadus/Mewtwo/Garbodor sounds like the next best home for Cobalion EX outside of Klinklang. I think Esa is over-selling Klinklang's downfall just a bit.
    Crawdaunt likes this.
  13. TechnoLegend

    TechnoLegend Active Member

    Awesome article!

    I really like your Aggrohammer list. I have been testing a similar list but with 1 Tornadus EX PLS, its a really nice way to have a huge hand early to gather everything you want to loop with sableye, also i like 2 max potion in this kind of list because it can wipe away attacks to an aggron or a sableye or a tornadus ex, they all either use 0-1 energy so your never loosing very much energy. What are your thoughts on that?
  14. Crawdaunt

    Crawdaunt Active Member

    Starmetroid, Esa just knows Chandelure is gonna drop it like it's hot.
    Starmetroid likes this.
  15. Parenting101

    Parenting101 Active Member

    Great article again Esa! I always enjoy reading your articles because they make me think in a different way.

    As grimlaw has mentioned about Cobalion EX, I think testing a Thundurus EX/Landorus EX/Cobalion EX sounds good in "theory".

    On a side note, I am loving reading your "10 years of Pokemon" articles.
  16. grimlaw

    grimlaw Member

    I am just going to run Mr. Mime and laugh at your attempts at bench damage! Okay a bit over the top, but it does seem for one card/prize you can stall out their kyurem attacks for a few turns. Even more goofy, Mr. Mime + Espeon Dex, no more discarded energy for you. =D
  17. badganondorf

    badganondorf Active Member

    Crawdaunt. In theory it's super good, but yeah, I also theorymoned that it would be difficult to draw into it and I'm "glad" to know it really is, lol.

    quack: I believe Blastoise's main goal should be set upping Blastoise and the attackers as soon as possible. If you rely on the Max Potion / Crystal Wall combo, you become very reliant on the Crystal Wall (see, you are in trouble if it's prized) and it will decrease your decks consistency. Also as I described, some people will start running Tool Scrapper just to counter Float Stones (and Garbodors), so against those Crystal Wall is just bad. Those who don't just start concentrating their fire on your benched Pokémon, and with more inconsistent deck, it will be difficult to keep the Blastoises going. So, in short, I'm not convinced about Crystal Wall at all.

    grimlaw: Good point, but Cobalion EX is just too immobile to stand a chance in the current format. Thundurus EX makes it a laughing stock, because it just loads the energy back to the benched Pokémon if you star discarding them. Also, 180 HP is surprisingly low HP amount against Plasma decks...Mr. Mime is also a very interesting card. However, I doubt it has any space in the format full of Cathcers. Lugia EX +Catcher= way too easy 2 prizes for your opponent. All we need is Catcher to be rotated out and we have a great and techful format in front of us.

    Starmetroid: I'm never over-selling Klinklang's demise, lol! No, to be honest, I encourage everyone to test the the Klinklang vs. Plasma match-up with a good Plasma list (i.e. one that includes Kyurem) and not with some lists, I have seen online that don't run Kyurem at all! Kyurem is probably the best card in the deck against many match ups and it's just a disgrace to leave it from the deck. T1 Kyurem also just laughs at all the Klinks in play.


    TechnoLegend: Great to hear! How did you fit all of those things into your AggroHammer o_O. I would also love to have a Max Potion, but the space is just so tight! I also want to tech 1 Dark Patch to the deck as well, but oh well... The space is a huge issue with the deck. Also, I really do love the idea of Tornadus EX as a starter (when combined with Max Potion).


    Crawdaunt: Klinklang, Chandelure... Could we talk just about the competitive decks out there, hahaha. Klinklang and Chandelure will have great battles in some tier 2,5 for sure, lol.

    Parenting101: Yeah, that just means that those decks will run a lot of Special energy as well, which makes Hammertime a very scary deck against most decks in the format! Great to hear that you like the history articles, I was surprised how well-received they were by the public, because the The Deck Out goes global articles weren't that well-received.
  18. shirokuma

    shirokuma Member

    Hey Esa, I feel that Victini EX is pretty much free 2 prizes for plasma, with or without victory piece. Kyurem+energy drop+colress machine with 3 deoxys, or 2 and a laser or 2 deoxys and hypnobank combo is enough to ohko Victini EX, meaning Victini EX is more of a liability than an asset imo. Its also 3 free prizes to a Lugia EX which can be charged up by T1-2 if you're running a more Lugia orientated list. There's also the issue of prizing any of the two pieces needed for it to work(as mentioned in one of the previous posts)

    I'd also like to ask about your thoughts on Rayeels in the next format. Is it still viable? (yeah, its more susceptible to donk but we write it off every time a new set comes out for that reason haha)
  19. Crawdaunt

    Crawdaunt Active Member

    :p I was just joking about Chandy Esa.

    I do agree with starmetroid on this one though. A 2-Kyurem list can still have a lot of trouble against klinklang. We'd upped the count to 3 kyurem because its just so good against everything. But N power can give klinklang an energy discarding advantage.

    One thing I've thought about recently would be to use one tech enhanced hammer in klinklang. The idea would be to skyla for it and remove two energy from a kyurem in one turn. Since they shifted to attacking with kyurem, they stopped accelerating energy. That can cause plasma to trip up mid-game, giving klinklang a serious advantage.

    But yeah, playing your cards right, klinklang does just fine against plasma. Perhaps not 50/50 (still working that out), but my main testing list doesn't dilute energy lines with Lugia, and is running one lightning on top of standard energies to make sure the deck doesn't miss a T1 Thundurus attach. And I still think klinklang is a tough matchup!
  20. badganondorf

    badganondorf Active Member

    Shirokuma: That's trueif they open with Kyurem, but if they open with Thundurus EX and you get T1 Victini EX going, you'll have the edge. After all it's good against anything else but Kyurem. However, that's after all why Plasma is the upcoming BDIF. It has a counter against everything.

    I have never liked RayEeels, so it probably goes without saying that I don't like it in this format either. I don't have the guts to play anything, which can lose instantly to the low HP starter. So, yeah I don't like it, but it has been doing surprisngly well even with Landorus and Garbodor around, so I expect it to do just fine in the upcoming metagame as well. But I believe that players who do well with RayEels are magicians...

    Crawdaunt: I surely need to test the match-up more if it's almost 50-50 in your opinion. Heck, it's something like 80-20 to Plasma in my test games...