The Hawk’s Nest: Embrace the Darkness and Rise from the Ashes

Discussion in 'UG Article Talk' started by airhawk06, Sep 27, 2012.

  1. airhawk06

    airhawk06 Active Member

  2. TechnoLegend

    TechnoLegend Active Member

    Great article! Best one i have read in a while, great deck lists especially for the Ho-Oh decks i really havent played agianst one yet.

    But im interested in your DMT build, with your 4 empty spaces... I have been testing prety much the same build but with 3 mewtwo EX and at least 2 Switch, why do you opt not to include it in your build?

    I love the idea of including a few Enhanced Hammers, might actually be the extra tech i was missing in my Hyregion match ups, but i would want to include atleast 3, and i want 2 Switch and i want 2 Eviolite. i could try and cut a mewtwo and go 3 hammers, and 2 Switch/Eviolite.

    anyway great article keep up the play testing and deck reviews!
  3. airhawk06

    airhawk06 Active Member

    @ Techno: Thanks! DMT is really a very tight deck list. Sometimes you have to make concessions here and there. Switch is great when playing against locking/stalling decks (Accelgor/Stunfisk). However, it is not great against most other decks. You just have to be very precise in where you place Darkness Energy. Enhanced Hammer, on the other hand, is very good against quite a few decks, particularly against Hydreigon. I know three would be optimal, but two is all I could fit in. Also, you still have Junk Hunt to reuse the Hammers with.

    Ultimately, I am making the wager that I will face more decks that rely on Special Energies than deck that rely on locking. It is a very difficult decision that is likely based on your meta.
  4. TechnoLegend

    TechnoLegend Active Member

    I really dont get to junk hunt that much, maby once or twice a game, seems like this deck is amazing as long as it streams 90 damage a turn.

    If i wanted to keep my 3 Mewtwo, what should my energy line look like right now i have 7 darkness, 3 fighting, and 4 DCE. i would like the 4th DCE for sure and want to have enough darkness and fighting...

    Im Going to try:
    4 DCE
    4 Fighting
    7 Darkness

    Also i cant tell you how many times my wife hits the flip on a Raikou EX and im stuck turn after turn... so the few switches have helped me agianst Eels.
  5. Crawdaunt

    Crawdaunt Active Member

    Great article airhawk :)

    As a fun note, your Ho Oh list with Virizion has grass energy listed twice. So would you be advocating 5 grass total? Or 4 grass + 1 of other types of energy?

    And as my personal obsession with Emp/Acc demands, I think it's interesting that people put Empoleon decks and Empoleon/Accelgor decks in a mutually exclusive dichotomy. I personally don't see Accelgor as being more disruptive to the energy lines, or to the overall strategy than Terrakion or say... Stunfisk. Obviously the methodology of utilizing the attack is different, but they're both answers to the same question, which generally approach gamestates similarly. Often against decks like RayEels or Garbodor, Empoleon/Accelgor just goes aggro Empoleon since it's the root of the deck. And against decks like Zeels, Accelgor doesn't try to fire off repeatedly... it's really more about using it as a 1-off, often combined with an N, to deal with an attacker like Zekrom or Thundurus who otherwise destroys Empoleons. Letting Empoleon Attack Command Eels without fear of retribution, and of course finish off the D&C'd attacker.

    Though the decks function differently, I'd say that just as Garbodor + Attackers is a category, and Ho Oh + Attackers is a category, Empoleon + Attackers should be a category which includes Accelgor.

    But I'm also really picky and love semantics :p

    Again, a great article overall, and I look forward to your next one in November (if not sooner)!
  6. Gelatin

    Gelatin So soft and jiggly.

    Digging the article. Found the different Ho-oh decks very interesting. I myself run a mix of Terrakion, Mewtwo, and a Registeel to deal with Eelektrik decks. Enhanced Hammer is something I haven't thought about though and would most definitely come in handy against quite a few decks. I'll have to try and find some room to squeeze it in there.
  7. NJ_Bob

    NJ_Bob Member

    Really good article, and you really hit the nail on the head about deck building in this format. It is overwhelming. I have been playing with 2 versions of Hydreigon and now up to 5 versions of eels (including rayquazza and non-rayquazza), and I have no idea which is best. It requires so many test games just to figure out if there is a difference other than 50-50 depending on which gets the best draws, and then I change a couple of cards which affect other match ups and have to start over. One thing is certain, consistency is extremely critical in this format. Mostly I am finding any of these decks can beat any of the others if it just sets up first.
  8. airhawk06

    airhawk06 Active Member

    @ Crawdaunt: Unless some one falls through and Adam needs help in a pinch, November would be the earliest you see me again. But, do not fear because (as always) Adam has a stellar line up for November coming your way!

    Great catch on the Grass. I only intended for there to be 4 Grass. Simply change the single Grass to a non-represented Energy type.

    As for Empoleon/Accelgor. I kinda agree with you that it should be Empoleon + attackers. However, Accelgor is commonly referred to as its own Archetype. So, I left them separated for now.

    Thanks for the comment!

    @ Gelatin: Enhanced Hammer is always one of those cards you want, but sometimes it doesn't make it into your final list. Just give it a go and see how you like it.

    Terrakion/Registeel/Mewtwo/Ho-oh is exactly how I ran the deck at an earlier Battle Roads. I really liked it.

    Thanks for the comment!
    Crawdaunt likes this.
  9. daGlaceon

    daGlaceon Still Can't See

    A few comments:

    Why would Bouffalant DR ever be a better tech for Sigilyph than BW? I mean, BW does the same thing but is easier to set up and can be played down straight frokm the hand.

    In regards to the Darkrai/Mewtwo lists:

    I would use Revive over Super Rod. More direct, though it doesn't recover energy.
    1 Bouf BW, no Bouf DR. Bouf BW is much easier to get out.

    However, since Hydreigon is THE big deck along with RayEels (but to a lesser extent) for Regionals, Darkrai Mewtwo is a bad meta choice. I wouldn't have even included it.

    The Terrakion on the other hand has potential, but not with that supporter line up. For late game, most other decks have an advantage. I would use a smaller count of N and more Random Reciever. If your only support left is N and you are at one prize, it'll be hard. I would drop 2 N for a Bianca and a Random Reciever.

    For the Hammertime list, I would rather run a single Mewtwo over a single Bouffalant.

    For the Karrablast, are you sure that it is the right one?

    Chande is dead, I'm sorry lol.

    Comments on the Hooh part later.
  10. airhawk06

    airhawk06 Active Member

    Thanks for the comments. I will try to explain.

    Bouffalant DRX is certainly not as good against Sigilyph as Bouffalant BLW. I believe I even said as much in the article. However, Bouffalant DRX is adequate against Siglyph. Additionally, Bouffalant DRX is better in a variety of match ups. So, I went with the universally more useful tech than the one that has very limited applications.

    I mentioned that Revive might be preferable to some over Super Rod in Darkrai/Mewtwo. I simply value the more versatile card. For example, say you have Darkrai, Mewtwo, Darkness Energy, Juniper in hand. You have already lost one Darkrai in the game. You desperately need to play a supporter to hit a crucial card that turn. You have not played your Revive or Super Rod yet. Super Rod allows you to ditch that hand more easily than Revive. It is purely a personal call. Neither one is right or wrong.

    Mewtwo EX in Hammertime does not accomplish what that slot needs to do: effectively counter Sigilyph. Bouffalant BLW does effectively counter Sigilyph. I could see the argument for Mewtwo, if Mewtwo becomes more popular again, but for now the bigger threat is being walled with Sigilyph.

    Doesn't matter which Karrablast you use. You simply need one in play to use Shelmet's Mysterious Evolution attack.

    I started my Darkrai/Mewtwo/Terrakion testing with a heavier emphasis on Random Receiver and even played DMT at a Battle Road with a heavier emphasis on RR. Going up in RR at the expense of other Supporters is not a good idea. After testing and a couple events I will never play more than two Random Receiver. I have been burned too many times by having to discard Supporters with Juniper in conjunction with having a couple Supporters prized. In those situations, it is too easy to run out of Supporters if you are playing high counts of RR. As for N, I feel it is a necessary evil in this format. For every game lost by drawing into an N when you only have one or two prizes, you win just as many (if not more) by dropping your opponent down to two or three cards and making a comeback. N is simply too good to not be played in high counts, IMO.

    I never said Chandy was Tier 1. Heck I didn't even include it in my Tier list. However, it has taken home 1 reported Top 4 and possibly a few others from what I have heard (not every event gets posted on the Gym, TTC, etc.). It is not a great deck, but it is certainly not 100% dead. Having the ability to drop 150 on a single target (or 90 to two targets) in a single turn is crippling to many decks, and that happens more often that you probably think. In reality it is very easy to use Cursed Shadow and Night Spear in a single turn a few times per game.
  11. Charranitar

    Charranitar Well-Known Member

    My little Chandelure deck is still kicking around it looks like. I think, unfortunately, the deck lost too much losing Smeargle and Junk Arm. Deck is still pretty good though, I think it's a lot better deck than a lot of the decks people are playing.
  12. airhawk06

    airhawk06 Active Member

    Don't flatter your self ;)

    Edan has been playing that deck and I was surprised at how well it ran sometimes. So, I started messing around with it a bit more
  13. Charranitar

    Charranitar Well-Known Member

    For comparisons sake here is the original list for the deck from last format.

    3 Darkrai EX
    2 Smeargle
    2 Litwick
    1 Lampent
    2 Chandelure (1 shiny)

    1 random receiver
    4 Juniper
    3 PONT
    3 N

    4 Junk Arm
    4 Switch
    3 Pokemon Catcher
    4 dark patch
    3 dual ball
    2 ultra ball
    3 rare candy
    2 dark claw
    1 super rod
    1 Skyarrow bridge

    8 dark
    4 special dark

    Deck should have won us nationals, I tell you what, if not forgetting to play a switch before a PONT and cutting an opponent into a game winning catcher off their 1 card N.

    For anyone who doesn't know, this deck has a ridiculously good Eels matchup. It puts the pain on stuff like Empoleon and Garhomp, as well as other Darkrai decks. Only problem I see with this is that both the 150/180 HP of the main two pokemon in Hydreigon makes it tough to setup the ohko,s you need. Would need to test that matchup more though, as you can used cursed shadow to easily knockout any Deino they have benched between that and the snipe.

    For those that don't understand why the deck is a powerful concept, Chandelure creates a double edged sword. It allows you to create an even/odd prize exchange. Additionally, any time they choose to take out a Chandelure instead of a Darkrai, they aren't putting the damage on your Darkrai. And if they leave Chandy on your field, your able to accelerate damage by a lot which helps give you an edge.
  14. airhawk06

    airhawk06 Active Member

    That's an interesting list. I really think with a lack of search cards the Chandy line has to get bigger.
  15. BREEE

    BREEE Member

    Hey, I've used this article a billion and a half times by now (Fantastic, btw.) and by far tested all 4 Ho Oh varients and just can't find consistency :(

    I'll often times draw into dumb things like 4 Energy, Wrong poke, and a Bianca, then top deck a tool scrapper with none of them useable for 3 turns or more..

    I'm absolutely sure my Meta is nothing but RayEelz and Darkrai/Hydreigon (but I'm pretty sure all of my area's regionals are going to be won by Hammertime w/Terrakion because EVERYONE is starting to play it now..) so do you have any way of making a pure consistent Ho Oh varient?

    I don't plan on using this at regionals, but I think with a good driven build that this deck could go very far for a friend of mine.
  16. airhawk06

    airhawk06 Active Member

    The best way to make a pure consistent any type of deck is to run a lot of 4-ofs in your list and increase your Support counts.

    The biggest problem with the current format with Ho-oh is that the best way to deal with RayEels (Registeel) is a potential liability against Darkrai stuff and the best card against Darkrai (Terrakion) get's blasted by Rayquaza EX.

    That being said I think the most consistent way to run the deck is to go aggro Mewtwo/Terrakion. It would be something like the following:

    4 Mewtwo EX
    3 Terrakion
    3 Ho-oh EX

    4 Juniper
    4 N
    3 Bianca
    2 Cheren

    4 Catcher
    4 Ultra Ball
    4 Switch
    4 Energy Switch
    3 Tool Scrapper

    4 DCE
    4 Fighting Energy
    3 Psychic Energy
    3 Other Energy

    That gives you four slots to work with I believe. However, that skeleton should be pretty consistent.
    BREEE likes this.
  17. BREEE

    BREEE Member

    Added; Think it's still consistent?
    I like an Eviolite'd Ho Oh, but I think I could probably get away with 2 Potions instead, leaving me another 2 slots.

    I love Registeel EX, and His match-up against Eelz, but I wouldn't begin to know where to put him in the deck and keep him from Post-Turn 3 getting catchered to waste switches :(

    Tornadus EX seemed nice too, as did Sableye, but Sableye required less support and more energy, and It already runs too many of single energies (and just not worth the hassle) and Tornadus is the OPPOSITE of Registeel in the Eelz Match-up..