VileTomb vs DialgaChomp

Discussion in 'Pokemon TCG News & Gossip' started by michaelmasacre, Sep 1, 2010.

  1. This is the place to continue further discussions on which decks a more viable play, will beat the other, and so on.

    P.S. My vote goes for VileTomb(I think it has the edge)...Just Saying.

    !!!Please Discuss!!!
  2. chrataxe

    chrataxe Member

    I vote Dialga.

    Has resistance to Gengar
    2 Dialga G Lv X completely shuts it down
    Can Trainer Lock in return
    Common Dialga Techs are great Vileplume counter (Blaziken FB, Toxitank, and lately, drifblim fb)
    Lets not forget, Dialga is hard to take down, that has nothing to do with trainer locking
    Garchomp is STILL the best attacker in the format
    Dialga discards energy
    Gengar decks lose free retreat

    The only advantage Gengar has is that it locks trainers....ok. Bebe's will get the X, Poke Turn helps, not needed, no Energy Gain is fairly common for Dialga since many people prefer Expert Belt (which can't be used either, I'm just saying the gain isn't NEEDED like many other decks), and Dialga sets up slow anyway, so it doesn't really "slow it down" or "kill SP speed" any. Also, SP being all basics, Collector sets up SP better than any trainer.

    Now, don't take this to mean its an easy win for Dialga, I just think it has the advantage. Gengar is Problematic due to Level favorite Vileplume arguement is "well, as soon as you knock it out, I'll get another one out" or like the front page article comment says "When it goes down, I'll already have Oddish/Candy/Vileplume waiting..." Yeah, ok. So, people think Gengar's level down (which can be sprayed) is REALLY that problematic? But, getting a second stage 2 out is easy? Seriously...people that continually say "I've seen it beat SP easily every time and the SP player was good" makes me question how good the SP player REALLY is. 4 Power spray, 2 Dialga G x, a few Bebe's Blaziken FB, Toxitank, and Drifblim FB has the words "AUTOWIN" written all over it.
  3. If you can set up 2 dialga g lv x's then your pretty amazing. However having 2 of the lv x's decreases your chances of starting with one. And considering your deck
    Has more trainers than anything I'm going to go out on a limb and say most often then not your probebly not going to start with a supporter in hand.
    And yes level down can be sprayed however feinting spell cannot so I almost always have a 50% chance of taking you with me, not to mention I'm almost certainly going to poltergeist for un heard of amounts of damage unless you run mad amounts of judge to shuffle you hand away.
    Only running 2 dialga g means you have a deck built around two cards, to me that doesn't say autowin.
    And everyone keeps mentioning resistence like it matters, I'm simply going to kill your bench until you rush into feinting spell.
    Also a 1-1 blaze tech isn't un-heard of in viletomb either, nor is mewtwo. In the end I still think viletomb has the advantage.
  4. i say dialga btw IT ATTACK SENDS TO THE LOST ZONE NOT DISCARD! 3-1 dialga is best with aarons to get the X back mewtwos not a prob with the X i dont think the blaze tech would work cuz it can be easly sniped by garchomp
  5. I agree with you on a couple of things, first 3-1 dialga line would be best in my opinion, also blaziken could be sniped easily by garchomp. But with all that being said, I still feel VileTomb has the upper hand. The entire deck works to shut yours down, while only Dialga effects VileTomb. Play a few test games sometime and you'll see how difficult it really is.
  6. badganondorf

    badganondorf Active Member

    I think the best way to deal with Viletomb with Dialgachomp is to attach your metal to Active Dialga G Energy gain it,Play down your stadium and a Skuntank G then Deafen.This would make all Trainers and Stadiums not playable for your opponent's turn and with Skuntank g's Posion Structure combined with deafen damage when Dialgachomp's turn comes around and your opponent doesn't retreat the active you have done a nasty 30 from when you attacked to your next turn,keeping this up and there would hardly be a problem with running this.I know this has to be in a certain position and I favor both matched against each other as a 50/50 win for either side so that way nobody can bash my opinion.
  7. chrataxe

    chrataxe Member

    what does garchomp sniping blaziken have to do with vileplume/gengar? uxie and spiritomb are easily sniped also (as was claydol) but that didn't stop them from being played effectively. blaziken is used to luring flame vileplume active then ohko next turn. also, the point of a 2-2 dialga line is to negate level down to continously break vileplumes body. as far as only running 2 dialga, MANY people only run 2 dialga basics. Not to mention a 2-2 luxray and a 2-2 garchomp, these aren't unheard of or ridiculous lines. you say that I would be hard pressed to get 2 level x's out, but your deck is based around 2 stage 2's, one of which has to level up, but thay seems perfectly feasible... but its a miracle if I can get 2 basic level x's out? really? fainting spell is easily avoided with crobat, uxie, skuntank, luring flame, or anything else that places damage. plus, lets keep in mind, dialga can play trainers because it shuts off bodies...and, dialga isn't ran to counter vileplume, it is a deck long before vileplume. Vileplume, however, isn't a deck, it is a tech specifically designed to counter sp. that alone should give dialga the advantage. also, lets assume fainting spell does take dialga down, I can easily get another dialga leveled up with 4 energy the next turn, no trainers needed. there is no way, especially if there is a trainer lock, that gengar or vileplume gets back out that fast.

    and, just to reiterate, dialga decks CAN play the time it takes me to burn 4 sprays, I can have 2-3 prizes drawn, and if I'm to believe you can get out 4-5 stage 2's under constant trainer lock (like you keep implying you will have), then I must look way dumber than I really am.

    Ilm not saying the deck sucks, or that it is an autoloss to dialga. I'm not even saying the matchup is easy. But, the only advantage vileplume has over any deck is its body. if dialga shuts off its body, how does that seem viable?

    one last note, since dialga can play trainers, poltergeist won't do tons of damage. and, even if you do get a ko off of fainting spell, dialga sets up way quicker than gengar and dialga is harder to ko. with the exception of crobat, uxiem and azelf, you won't be able to snipe my bench. I can take down a gengar faster than you can snipe all of those.

    but, I digress. if I keep talking, ill end up giving away all of my strategies.
  8. King of Japan

    King of Japan Member

    how are you going to get a loaded dgx the turn after it was killed? YOU AREN'T also gengar doesn't have to recover as fast cause more than likely they will have a second gar ready on the bench. Vilegar is almost entirely designed to kill sp. It hurts other things but at it's heart it is an sp counter. when you combine trainer lock, with being able to snipe uxie, azelf, bronzong and anything else with a power for sixty with only 1 energy plus crazy poltergeist damage AND unsprayable feinting spell, there are just too many ways for vilegar to take prizes. dgx helps but with feinting spell, level down and poltergeist it is difficult to actually have him out for more than a turn or two at a time. I'm not saying it's an autoloss but it is probably the hardest match up sp has. It will come down to the skill of each player and how much experience they have playing the game and playing with their own particular deck.
  9. chrataxe

    chrataxe Member

    I agree with you 100%, it is SP hardest matchup. My point is, it is an SP counter and the worst matchup for Viletomb IS Dialga.

    As far as setting up Dialga the next turn, I promise you I can. I won't reveal how...get creative....but it is possible and easy to pull off. As far as having Gengar on the bench, if DGX goes down and there is a trainer lock, Gengar X is gone, no more level down. IF I play a 2-2 Dialga line, I don't have to have 2 X's in play, I just have to have 1 X out and a basic on the bench with the other X in hand. When he is KO'ed, level up the basic on the bench. As far as doing 60 to my bench, Bronzong won't get KO'ed much b/c of Garchomp always healing. I can't stop level down forever, but I can power spray it 4 times. The amount of time it takes to Power spray 4 times, I can KO Gengar...if I go with fainting spell, oh well. Once the X goes down, there is no more worries about Level Down. And, as far as having a second Gengar set up, this implies you have 3 Stage 2's in play with no Trainers, probably Uxie and Spiritomb as well, and if Uxie and Spiritomb aren't out, your deck probably didn't set up and you probably didn't have a trainer lock all game. If both of those are out, those are easy prizes for Garchomp (if we have to keep beating on the bench sniping) point is, if Gengar can get all of those cards into play without trainers, am I really to believe I can't get out a few cards myself?

    And, what happens when Vileplume goes down?

    And, once again, Poltergeist isn't that big of a deal b/c his body will be shutdown, Dialga can play trainers.

    And, you are right,it does come down to the skill of the players and how good they are with their own deck. But, Dialga has a little wiggle room. Gengar is so tight, builds will be very generic. Thus, playing one Viletomb is like playing all Viletomb, except for the players skill.
  10. King of Japan

    King of Japan Member

    Maybe we are thinking of different things when we say "loaded" i think a dgx with at least 4 energy 2-4 being special metal and an expert belt. you are telling me that you can get 4 special metal on in one turn? the only way that is possible would be galactic switching using bronzong but if you do that 4 times without a heal, your bronzong is as good as dead. besides even if you did that the turn before your other dgx got killed you wouldnt be able to attack for a turn.

    ---------- Post added at 09:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:29 PM ----------

    btw- getting three stage 2's out is not hard if the vilegar list is good. it just takes a collector a few darkness graces and bebes. It's easily doable by t-3 and two of them can be out by t2
  11. chrataxe

    chrataxe Member

    I agree-"Loaded" would be 2-4 special metals. Getting that second special metal on is a bit harder, but not impossible, fairly easy infact with Bronzong but that isn't the key, though it doesn't hurt. I don't have to "Galactic Switch" 3 times to make that happen. Plus, he gets healed every time Garchomp comes into play.

    And, I agree, its not THAT hard to get 3 Stage 2's out, but if you do, you aren't ever doing damage and Garchomp can easily snipe 1 of them before it is set up. I would venture to say only half of your stage 2's you are evolving will never be effective do to not damaging me while darkness grace is being used. But, my big point there was that when Gengar falls and Dialga is hit with Fainting Spell, a 2-2 Dialga line will get Dialga back before a second Gengar (especially with the X) gets back out. Yes, you can stop attacking to darkness grace, but my Dialga will be back out next turn and Garchomp can snipe that turn, KO'ing ethier Gastly or Spiritomb. And, despite the fact that this was obvious and I JUST thought of this, a 3-1 or a 2-1 Dialga line with Aaron achieves the same thing as far as getting Dialga back. I know, the answer there is "Yeah, well, that means you have to have that ONE Aaron in you hand." To which I say, I have been preaching TWO Aaron's forever now, and getting either one of them is EASY with Cyrus. And, I would able to attack that turn, just not with Dialga...and, my main point there was, Gengar won't be able to attack for at least 2 turns either.

    I'm not saying this isn't a good deck...even a great deck. I'm just saying I don't see how it is ever better than 50/50 against any SP because SP IS faster. I'm not saying this deck is slow, I'm saying SP is NOT slower. And, as far as matchups go, I don't see how it is ever better than 65/35 in favor of Dialga.

    ---------- Post added at 10:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:45 PM ----------

    Oh, just to clear up the "loaded" part: I can have Dialga out next turn with 4 energy on him, 2 of which are Metal, none of which need to be DCE....with DCE, I can attack. This goes back to my Regigigas FB days...
  12. Ok let me break it down for you: Your whole point is about how dialga G can kill gengar and rebuild itself if it falls to gengar's feinting spell, my point is I don't actually have to kill your Dialga G to beat your Dialga deck. Instead All I have to do is simply kill other things. By taking a prize everyturn with gengar I can essentially beat you without actually having to defeat your Dialga G. Sure you can get the Lv. X out and shut off my bodies, but Unless you start with him chances are i'm going to start the game off with a trainer lock and thus set up faster, which means Im most likely going to achieve at least one KO before you shut down my bodies. Now If I am able to take a prize every turn (which most of the time is completely plausable with this deck for a couple of reason, one of which being you have to drop pokemon with powers on the bench in order to: move energies, draw cards, drop extra damage, I can essentially out speed you. It doesnt matter how amazing your tank is, when and if he falls, I will have an answer just as you will, Viletomb doesnt just lock trainers my friend, we also have a lush line of supporters to lock your hand, with a stable amount of judges and lookers investigation we are ampt to find shuffling your hand away all to easy. This in combination with trainer locking is a tough strategy to survive. Don't you think that when it gets time to KO Dialga wether it be you rushing into feinting spell or poltergeist, we would simply play a judge or a lookers to ensure your hand isnt ready to rebuild him once we remove him from the field?
  13. King of Japan

    King of Japan Member

    Vilegar's power is not only from his lock but also his ability to hit the majority of cards on the field not to mention his incredible powers. DialgaChomp decks use several things to be successful Brongzong G for energy moving, Uxie for set up and uxie x for draw power. Not to mention a ton of other techs that often have powers that are personal choice. Bronzong and Uxie x are seen in almost all dialgachomp decks and it only takes a couple shadow rooms to take an easy prize off them. Not only do you then draw a prize, you destroy dialga's support which is essential. After you destroy the support they either have to use an aarons, ( which cant recover uxie or uxie x) or a palmers. they have used their supporter for the turn and you are already on to a new target.
  14. Chemical

    Chemical Front Page Contributor

    Okay i'll keep a scoreboard.
    Dialgachomp Both VileTomb
    -----2 ------------1 -------2
    Anyways King of Japan i must be an idiot for not playing Uxie Lv.X in my Dialgachomp build and having brongzong G in the list but never playing him.
  15. chrataxe

    chrataxe Member

    I understand that that Gengar is a mean sniper. And I admit, yes, I will have Pokemon with Powers on my bench. But, Gengar doesn't OHKO any of them....unless you run Kingdra in your Gengar deck (who would do that!?!?!). With the exception of Uxie, all can and WILL be healed. So what if you snipe Uxie? Its a 2HKO. So, every 2 turns, you take a prize. Granted, you aren't attacking Dialga, that just means I'm not having to scoop Garchomp to heal, I can Poke Turn Bronzong, which has an amazing affect as well.

    I'm hoping to hit 3 BR. One of which I will not be running Dialga because I have been spending a lot of time getting a Steelix deck together to counter my specific meta game at my league. Depending on how that deck does and how well the match ups are, I may or may not run it at another BR. But, it is my intention to hit what I think is going to be a Gengar heavy meta (I could be wrong) with my Dialga deck. Either way, I will have BR reports that will show how (if I run into any) my match ups went and my deck ideas.
  16. Chemical

    Chemical Front Page Contributor

    Well unlike you chrataxe I may go to three.1 for sure but the other 3 will either be 2 in Columbus or 1 in Columbus and 1 in Cinci,(I live an hour away from both)and I will be running dialga in all three if I go.
  17. DylanLefavour

    DylanLefavour Member

    Awesome man. You better own Gengar lists.
  18. dialga chomp dosnt own gengar i say its 50 50 matchup. sure like i said before it helps but the only prob is gengar X can level down but you have to have them in your hand and you most likely would have power sprayed uxies earlyer game. also if they KOed a gengar last turn and you have a Qed tomb you can use that and level down and they cant power spray but thats a rare case but i have seen it happen
  19. Chemical

    Chemical Front Page Contributor

    Just as I have said, a 50/50 matchup.Also Dragon i ahve seen that in cases too.The only Gengar list I have seen run in my area is this kid who runs Gengar SF the whole entire year.

    On another note I would like to thank michaelmasacre for making this thread so no more discussion about these two would end up on my dialgachomp decklist help thread.
  20. chrataxe

    chrataxe Member

    I didn't mean to say that Dialga owns it...I said I hope Chemical owns it.

    I agree, the match up is 50/50. I've been saying that all along. But, most match ups are with Dialga. All of the Gengar players are the ones saying it completely owns SP, Dialga being no exception. I don't think it is much better than 50/50 with any SP deck, but I think Dialga is by far the BEST SP match up against any Vileplume deck.

    The easiest answer to the power spray problem is: don't spray Uxie. And, I would venture to say, if Uxie gets sprayed, the deck doesn't set up. I don't know any deck that set up well at all when Uxie is sprayed, especially a deck that relies on 2 stage 2's and doesn't play trainers. Let me be clear: I AM NOT SAYING THE DECK IS SLOW...I'm saying there is no way it can set up well with a sprayed Uxie....not even saying it CAN'T set up...just saying that a spraying Uxie in this deck hurts it more than ANY other deck since it doesn't play trainers.

    And, in the assumptions that it does get leveled down...well, I have been saying all of this thread and the main page article, play a 2-2 Dialga line, level down doesn't affect you much.