VileTomb vs DialgaChomp

Discussion in 'Pokemon TCG News & Gossip' started by michaelmasacre, Sep 1, 2010.

  1. chrataxe

    chrataxe Member

    I'm not saying Dialga won't be trainer locked T1. My point was this: I run 4 call, 4 Dialga (2 basics, 2 X) therefore, I have just as good of a chance of getting/starting with Dialga as Gengar does with Spiritomb/Gastly. Yes, I will be trainer locked T1. But, with 2 Uxie (like most Gengar lists run) and 4 Cyrus + Bebe (however many you run, my current list has 3), and 4 Power Spray, Dialga has the same probability to set up as Gengar does, here is the basics of why:

    Dialga:
    4 Dialga (2-2)
    4 Call Energy
    4 Cyrus
    3 Bebe
    2 Uxie

    Gengar:
    4 'Tomb
    4 Gastly
    4 collector (just assuming)
    3 Bebe (call it 4)
    2 Uxie

    My point is, Dialga can Power Spray T1-T2 more consistently that than the odds of Gengar start Spiritomb active, because Gastly doesn't doesn't lock power spray. IF Gengar doesn't start Spirit (which it won't 60% of the time) and gets sprayed, that is detrimental to Gengar since it doesn't run trainers to aid in set up. Gengar will never spray Dialga's Uxie, therefore it will ALWAYS set up more consistently. Also, if 'Tomb doesn't start, no Darkness Grace.

    So, basically, my argument is, running 4 Dialga cards gives me the same probability of starting with one as Gengar does of a Spiritomb start. So, it we play the "I start Spiritomb" game, its only fair to let Dialga play the "I start with a Dialga in my hand" game, since both have equal probability. If I start with a Dialga and you start with a 'Tomb, it will be ATLEAST T2 before Gengar hits the field, assuming you can get gastly out and Darkness grace into Haunter, and assuming (again) you have Gengar in hand (or the ability to search for it), you evolve and can attack. Of course, you would also have to have Unown q at this point to retreat, so I have to assume Spiritomb stays active and no attack comes until at least T3. I would venture to say most Gengar Players are arrogant enough to believe the trainer lock will last forever and will try and keep 'tomb active to get Vileplum out...though, not all of them would. While this is going on, I start with 1 Dialga. The likelyhood of me getting to play either Cyrus to get Bebe or starting Bebe or another Dialga or start with call, or have the ability to get Uxie out some how T2, leads to a high probability that I will have 2 Dialga's in hand T2, with 1 in play. T3 I can have the X out. If I have Dialga out T3, chances are, Gengar can't attack until T3. So, at best, Gengar gets 1 good attack before I level up.

    Fainting spell REALLY isn't that big of a threat. Skuntank and Crobat make it easily avoidable...and, Like I said, just don't attack with Dialga, keep it benched. Snipe with Garchomp and Driblim (Garchomp doesn't HAVE to have E-Gain, a bronzong'ed Warp Energy works just as good), Luring Flame with Blaziken. And, Like I've also said, Houndoom 4 and Darkrai G are great gengar counters. If I lose them on Fainting spell...oh well, I keep the lock.

    ---------- Post added at 09:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:45 PM ----------

    Ah yes, another Gengar player that has those MAGIC trainers: both of them hop in their hand by T2 FTW everytime.
  2. King of Japan

    King of Japan Member

  3. eriknance

    eriknance Member

    I think what Chrataxe is getting to is if you don't get the spiritomb start your lagging in setup for your viplume and gengar lines while he can get up an attack Turn1 or 2.
  4. King of Japan

    King of Japan Member

    They still establish trainer lock t1 which will slow you down at least as much as them not starting tomb slows them down.

    Also he is comparing having 4 call to having 4 basic pokemon which is not at all the same thing. Considering call takes up your attack and ends your turn.
  5. chrataxe

    chrataxe Member

    Chemical is geting the gist of what I'm saying.

    I never said I would start with Dialga G lv X. My point was that Pitch Dark doesn't stop me from Power Spraying. One thing EVERYONE ALWAYS says in Pokemon is "Consistency, consistency, consistency, consistency...." you get the point. What I'm getting at is this: Dialga has a more consistent set up. That's not my opinion, that is a fact. I don't think getting Dialga out will win the game. But, the deck is only as good as it is BECAUSE of the trainer lock. IF that statement were untrue, then everyone wouldn't run Spiritomb or Vileplume in the deck. The Gengar arguement is always "Well, I take cheap snipes on your bench and hit you for tons of damage with Poltergeist." My point is this: take a few cheesy prizes, that's fine, in fact, normal for Dialga. How many Poke Powered pokemon does Dialga play? Crobat? Can't OHKO, gets healed by Garchomp, and can be Poke Turned when Dialga breaks the lock. Uxie? Still 2 shots to ko. Uxie X? Bronzong? Still 2 shot with 20 damaga, but he gets healed by Garchomp also. What everyone keeps leaving out is this little nugget: Gengar's sniping was great with Crobat and Poke Turn. You can't play Poke Turn in this deck. The other good thing about Gengar in the last format was Cursegar. Gengar was never active, thus hard to KO. Also, his Curse power allowed one to move damage, essentially giving extra Crobat drops. This deck loses all three of those: no Poke Turn, no Curse, and Gengar will always be active. After 4 turns of sniping, Gengar takes 2 prizes...big whoop. Dialga will easily be out by then. From then on, Gengar can't do enough damage to take any more prizes except on fainting spells.

    For the record, my logic is not flawed. I've never said or lead anyone to think I was trying to say I can start with Dialga or that I will get the X out with Call. You are comparing apples to lettuce. My statements about call energy and Dialga starts are strictly to calculate the probability that I get Dialga out. With 4 Dialga cards, 4 Cyrus, 3 bebe, and 4 call, the calculated probability to get Dialga out is better than getting Gengar out. The other big point you are missing that Dialga CAN power spray Uxie unless Gengar starts with Spiritomb, which was my point, that there is only a 40% of that happening. With 4 sprays and 4 Cyrus, the probability of starting with one is pretty good. Even if Dialga goes first, the odds of getting 'Tomb out to prevent spraying is a lot better...but, would a Gengar player get Uxie or Spiritomb given the option. Tough call. Either way, the deck looses a lot because it has to search for a card that is imperative to set up, meaning it will ALWAYS have to search for either Uxie, Gastly, Oddish, unown Q, and/or Spiritomb. Because the decks needs all 3 to run effectively, probability of it setting up faster (mathematically speaking) is almost impossible. Lets not forget the ambipom Tech, that is a great 'Tomb counter. If 'Tomb isn't active, this deck struggles.

    And, I understand the point is to trainer lock and there are 8 cards to do it in the deck. But, only 4 prevent power spray....I think this is the third time I've said that in this post, probably the 100th time in the thread. My point is, spraying Uxie DEVASTATES this set up. The probability of spray is greater than the probability stop the spray.

    Just to reiterate, for the fourth time: Pitch Dark doesn't stop Power Spray. My argument has been about Power Spraying Uxie and comparing consistent starts. If I know there is a trainer lock threat, I have to build a deck that sets up consistently while being locked....if non SP can do that, so can SP. Not being able to play trainers doesn't really slow down SP set up a lot. Most Pokemon have 2 energy attacks, many have 3 with 2 colorless requirements (meaning 2 w/DCE). Yeah, it may delay attacks by one turn, but that doesn't mean my set up is destroyed.

    I'm not comparing having 4 call energy to having 4 basic Pokemon. I'm saying that between call energy and the probability that I start 3 Pokemon, SP builds will have the ability to Spray early more consistently than than Gengar does to start 'Tomb to Darkness Grace and stop the spray. That is ALL I am saying. I'm not talking about getting the X out. I'm not talking about when there is 2 prizes left. I'm not talking about Fainting Spell. I'm talking about the PROBABILITY OF CONSISTENT STARTS. Another token to that is that Gengar RELIES on the lock to slow down its opponents start. SP decks will be built to set up either way....just because they haven't, doesn't mean they won't. This deck WILL be teched against.

    Just for fodder, lets talk about another topic that keeps getting left out: Garchomp. Garchomp snipes better than Gengar. SP will take easy prizes to. With a 2-2 Garchomp line and a 2-2 Dialga line, one of the X's will get out quickly.

    And, one last note. I KNOW Gengar can level down....THAT IS WHY I KEEP SAYING TO RUN A 2-2 LINE AND SPRAY LEVEL DOWN! If I spray level down 2 times, there is no reason I can't KO Gengar by then. Once the X goes into the discard, he isn't really a threat anymore. Sure, Palmer can get it back, but Gengar will be the first prize to go. Chances are, the X will come out fast and will be the only Gegnar out before I KO it. I know, Gengar players think they can get 2 Gengar and a Vileplume out quicker than a Dialga deck can do 140 damage, but THAT is flawed logic. Dialgachomp can EASILY do that damage in 3 turns under trainer lock. It would take 6 turns to get out 3 stage 2's with no trainers. Another flawed logic in the Gengar deck is this: Either Gengar OR Vileplume gets out first. If Gengar gets out first, you can't really expect a self damage 60 HP starter Pokemon will live more than 2 turns. If Vileplume comes first, Dialga isn't doing damage. If Gengar comes first, in order for it to attack, it has to break its own trainer lock....that is a biggest weakness in the deck: it can't maintain trainer lock AND attack early game.
  6. King of Japan

    King of Japan Member

    Pitch dark won't stop you, no. But tomb will and they will start tomb almost half the time. Which is more than you will start with dialga.
  7. flygondrb

    flygondrb Member

    .......Didin't he just explain in one of the longest posts I've ever seen that YOU START WITH DIALGA MORE THAN 'TOMB?!
  8. flygondrb

    flygondrb Member

    I just tested Dialgachomp against Vilegar 4 times on Red Shark, and dialga won 3 and Vilegar one once. The only time dialga lost was when it got an uxie start and couldn't draw anything good, and it one 3 times when Vilplume started with spiritomb. That means that dialga will win 75% of the time; Therefore proving that DialgaChomp is the superior deck.
  9. You testing against it means nothing, please don't assume just because you tested with it and won 3 out of 4 matches that Dilagachomp will win 75% percent of the time, Nor that Dialgachomp is the superior deck. Whom did you test against? Do both of you have any merit in your pkmn career? (I.E. won any tournaments?). If so please specify so the community can assume this match-up was tested by to high standing players as oppose to having the match tested against someone whom played themselves, or someone else and there may or may not have been an "even" standard playing field.
  10. King of Japan

    King of Japan Member

    How do you start with dialga more than they start with tomb? In order to even start with dialga g the same you would have to run 4 basic dialga g and no level x? It is not possible to START dialga mroe than they start tomb
  11. Crawdaunt

    Crawdaunt Active Member

    Chrataxe said this:I've never said or lead anyone to think I was trying to say I can start with Dialga or that I will get the X out with Call.
    He is saying there is tons of more ways to get Dialga G out than a spritiomb such as(Call,Sp Radar,Collector,Communication)
  12. chrataxe

    chrataxe Member

    I think everyone is missing what I'm saying about the start...still. Which, is my fault. I did mix the two together like I meant for them to be in the same topic but it was really 2 different topics.

    Topic 1: Probability of Dialgachomp (any SP deck, really) generally setting more consistently than Viletomb

    Topic 2: Probability of Dialga G Lv X hitting the field early game.

    While the two are connected, they are independent of each other. Dialgachomp can get a good set up without Dialga out immediately. If it gets Garchomp out T1 vs a non 'Tomb start (which doesn't happen half of the time, its statistically impossible) with 2 other non Dialga SP, attach a gain, drop a bat, put on DCE...hitting pretty hard T1, probably KO'ing the active. Despite Dialga not being out, SP can still spray Uxie. Ambipom is another great SP starter. Lets assume you don't start with the Gain, you can still snipe T2. If you aren't sniping T2, then you probably have a Dialga in your hand. Skuntank G and a Stadium with ANY SP attacker wrecks havoc on Spiritomb.

    My point is SP has too many tools to wreck an already inconsistent Viletomb start. Yes, Vileplume does the same in return to SP, but SP has better probability to win the set up match up.

    Interestingly enough, I ran across this on the Gym's homepage:
    http://pokegym.net/forums/showthread.php?t=132222

    I have no idea how good the list is, but it seems like the Pokemon line is pretty solid...don't know about all of the trainers he runs. It was written by Jacob Lesage. For those of you who don't know who he is, he is this year's Senior World Champion and went undefeated last season. he is no slouch is my point. He says Luxchomp vs Viletomb slightly favors Luxchomp and Viletomb vs Dialgachomp is very unfavorable to Viletomb. Then again, he says Sablelock is unpredictable (wasn't that meant to be a Gengar counuter?) and Tyrannitar is 50/50...ok.
  13. King of Japan

    King of Japan Member

    I imagine the reason he says that T-Tar is 50-50 is because if you ko gengar with t-tar than feinting spell activates and T-tar doesn't usually run crobat g so it's only option would be uxie.
  14. Chemical

    Chemical Front Page Contributor

    I just tested against myself with Dialgachomp vs the Vilegar list Jacob Leslage posted, without alot of speed i noticed vilegar had troublegetting energy for attacks and it couldn't get the pokemon out fast enough, combine that with a few fainting spells missing(to tell you the truth all did) Gengar only took 1 prize to Dialgachomps 6.I noticed that Dialgachomp really doesn't need to run a 2-2 line as my 3-1 line served well and even if DGX was koed by fainting spell I had an Aaron's Collection in my hand and a benched Dialga G with 1 SP metal and 1 Metal with warp in hand and Garchomp C on bench with egain and DCE and GCX in hand.Overall I don't think Vilegar can handle the match with out trainers to speed it up because that one supporter choice is so crucial that you gotta hope you get what you need.
  15. chrataxe

    chrataxe Member

    Yeah, I can see the 50/50 being because of fainting spell. But, for 1 special dark and a Belt, Tyranitar hits Gengar for 100, that's hard to get around.


    Depending strictly on Trainers is pretty rough. My current Steelix list runs very few trainers (VERY few...not really intentional). I wouldn't say it is "consistent" per se, but it almost always sets up well enough to do SOMETHING pretty good, be it getting Steelix out hitting hard quick are some other side strategies. But, when it doesn't set up, the problem is always that I can't get one of my Bebe's in my hand to get that ONE card I need. Granted, there are some other tricks my deck has, but when it does stall, that is why. Strangely enough, I have that deck drawing so good that it is hard to make good use of Uxie because my hand is always too full. But, back on topic, it is a bit tough to rely so heavily on trainers. The other side to that is, most (I said MOST...) decks will rely on trainers and won't be able to use them. So, what it really boils down to is this: everyone is about to start running more Supporter heavy lines with minimal trainers (except SP, which will still cut back), so everyone will have the same draw backs.
  16. I am saying this with no testing myself but my friend jacob lesage told me that the dialgachomp they have has been beating vilegar everytime, now there dialgachomp is pritty crazy so idk if the normal dialgachomp with a normal play will win tho.
  17. chrataxe

    chrataxe Member

    Yeah, I said that earlier. I don't know Jacob's Dialga list, but I've seen his Viletomb list on the Gym and he said it heavily favors Dialga.