Tier 1 Virizion EX, Genesect EX

I have to disagree with you a lot, Vablakes. You constantly talk about catcher stalling, but is that really why you would not run a card that allows you to hit magic numbers? With this type of logic someone could say that TDK should not run Deoxy because it can be catcher stalled. Running a tech like it has risks; there is no godly tech that has no risks. From my testing, and it seems other people have actually tested as well, the ability to hit for magic numbers is incredibly important. Think about this; with 1 Deoxy you can use Megalo Cannon and do 110 to an active kyurem and 20 to a benched one. Then on the next turn catcher/red signal the other and boom you took out two kyurem's. (I realize this is a very specific situation, but its to help stress the point of how important that 10 extra damage is. If you don't have it, then you are stuck either doing 100 twice to a kyurem, or having to 3HKO it). This isn't even adding in the extra damage that Virizion can do.

Oh yeah Korea didn't have an official rotation yet.
My bad '=.='[DOUBLEPOST=1377823749][/DOUBLEPOST]Deoxys isn't there for 110 overkill. Its kinda like dark claw in Darkrai. You can hit so much with just 1 deoxys.
It could be just me cuz I hate wasted damage

Deoxys is a decent attacker in TDK and can be quickly powered in one turn to attack. In VirGen he will NEVER attack therefore he is a liability from all angles. He doesn't even benefit from Skyarrow. Switches in TDK serve many purposes other than getting Deoxys out of the active spot. In VirGen Switch will almost literally be for Deoxy stalls. You're dedicating so much of your list for this one idea. Opening with a lone Deoxys in VirGen is also a terrible thing. You will need Virizion, Ultra Ball, Plasma Badge, Colress Machine, and Switch to get your desired opening if Deoxys starts. These inconstistencies are too much for someone to prefer this build over a more straightfoward one.

Unless someone here has a better idea about how to make VirGen better (because it still needs a lot of help) I'm all ears.

If not, then Deoxys will just have to do for now.

exactly. Deoxy allows you to not have to waste a lot of damage and allows you to get those perfect numbers, much like darkrai does[DOUBLEPOST=1377824510][/DOUBLEPOST]

The issue is your trying to just look at all the minor, rare issues. You will obviously sometimes start with Deoxy, and you really can't change that, but the pros that it gives you- being able to hit for those magic numbers and not having to waster damage- really overweighs the fact that you can start with it. TDK can also start with it, and if they do its not so easy for them to get a t1 attack. And a deoxy on t1 is hitting for a WHOLE 30 damage -_- that is not exactly good

In my opinion, whether or not Deoxys is a good call hinges solely on whether or not you are wanting to run Skyarrow Bridge or Float Stone as your retreat card (with Switch being largely redundant due to the fact your Pokemon seldom will have any Special Conditions).

There is no arguing the merits an extra 10-20 damage here and there can make, but the concern of getting Catcher-stalled with Deoxys active is a very legitimate one. When running any Pokemon with a Retreat Cost greater than one, Skyarrow Bridge probably is not where you want to be, and you will likely want to run the Float Stones instead (or some combination of the two).

Also worth noting, is the switch from Skyarrow Bridge to Float Stone frees up room for a stadium, and LaserBank does a good job helping you hit magic numbers also. Megalo Cannon + LaserBank = KO'd Kyurem, for example.

Just something to think about.

haha cheers. it is my 1st draft, so the counts of everything are high (4 switch, 4 deoxys, 5 pokeballs etc) this can be fiddled around with once I figure out what is necessary.

the point of deoxys is to make virizions attack worthwhile. it allows 2 shots on ex's using emerald slash then megalo cannon. it is also extremely useful midgame.
with 2 deoxys and plasma badge u can ko sableyes with virizion while powering up a new attacker. u can one shot blastoise with virizion while powering up a new attacker. u can ko 60hp basics with virizion while powering up genesect. it allows virizion to two shot kyurem while powering up 2 different genesects.
without deoxys, emerald slash's 50 damage can be pointless a lot of the time.

I do find it funny that my deck was criticised for playing 4 deoxys, leading to catcher stalling, and in the next post criticised for playing 4 switch and 2 SAB, which are unnecessary. with that count catcher stalling rarely happens. with a sab out, deoxys has one retreat, which is easily payable with colress machine or an attatchment.

either way, genesect virizion needs something. I don't think ballons are the answer as they only really help one matchup. lasers are a good alternative to deoxys, but are dead cards in the mirror and other decks that tech virizion (plasma, hydreigon).

If I am running Float Stone over Skyarrow Bridge, I am not opposed to running a couple Deoxys EX, but Team Plasma Badge just doesn't seem worth it to me, even with Deoxys EX accounted for. Emerald Slash is already a respectable attack, and if you're trying to use it to set up a kill turn after, why not just run a Bouffalant DRX or two?

Emerald Slash + (EX) Gold Breaker = 170
Emerald Slash + (EX) Gold Breaker + Laser = 180
Emerald Slash + Emerald Slash + LaserBank = 130

Personally I like running a lone Deoxys EX, solely for the ability to KO two Kyurems with back-to-back Megalo Cannons* . I can definitely see the argument for more though.

(*110 to Active Kyurem, 20 snipe to Benched Kyurem. Next turn, Catcher/RedSignal the 20 damaged one up, 110 it for the KO and 20 snipe the now-benched one with 110 damage already on it for the KO also.)

I initially played with Float Stone, but considering I'm ideally going to put it on Deoxys exclusively I just decided to up my SAB and energy counts instead.

Deoxys retreat cost is the biggest hurdle this deck has to work around if you chose to play it, but you just have to play it smart and know when to bench it. I will often discard a Deoxys from my opening hand only to Super Rod or Shadow Triad later to secure a knock out.

If you run Deoxys, you have to pretty much build the deck around it, and it ends up like Pooka's early list, which was basically TDK with Virizion and Genesect instead of Kyurem, and Blend GRPD insteaf of WFML. And discussion about that doesn't belong in this thread.

My list uses 2 Tropius, but I never really use them, unless I start with one. Return can be useful at times, but you would always use Megalo Cannon or G Booster over Energy Press (except against Suicune). I don't really know what else to use, though. Bouffalant has 2 retreat, and Virizion PLB is worse than Tropius.

I always cringe when I am forced to discard a Shadow triad early game. I feel uncomfortable without 2-3 outs to recover G Booster late game.

I've found 1/1 split between bouffalant and tropius pretty good. Topius is really only for Suicune lol.

Thanks, I will try testing that.

you don't have a great alternate attack unfortunately, maybe something will be released with the X/Y pokemon for our winter set after the reprint set. Here's to hoping but bouffalant has done wonders for me after an emerald slash and they're forced to take it out. Then genesect can plow through...

I'm really confused by this Deoxys argument. The reason you would run 1 is simple, really. Megalo Cannon once, snipe to Kyurem then KO it the next turn, and possibly 2 if you attacked a Kyurem for 110 the previous turn. Is it really that hard, guys?

It's not a failure to understand, it's a failure to agree.

i think a lot of the argument is from my list which plays 4 deoxys. 1 should be a no brainer, for kyurem and magic numbers with 170hp ex's.
i play 4, as stated in previous posts to hit 130 with megalo cannon. makes a kyurem a ohko, and 170hp ex's set up with 2 snipes. also helps virizion to hit for important damage when a badge is attatched.
i am unsure if dropping to 1-2 deoxys would be better, only testing and incoming tournie results will tell.

Well, 2-3 would be nice for hitting magic numbers, but then it becomes an issue of consistency and bad starts. 1 is a no brainer though.

Honestly, I dunno how you fit in 3-4. I would like 2, in case my 1 copy gets prized, but no space whatsoever

I see the point of Deoxys but if you hit a Kyurem for 50 using Emerald Slash to help you setup, and then Megalo Cannon for the KO.

if they catcher up the genesect with energy and threaten the 2hko (or worse ohko), you are in a precarious position. deoxys and badge lets virizion do 60+, allowing the 2hko with virizion and setting up a second genesect.