Tier 1 Virizion EX, Genesect EX

Discussion in 'Competitive Deck Discussion' started by Serperior, Aug 14, 2013.

  1. Joai

    Joai Grinded into Worlds 2011...

    Can V/G come back from losing? I'm not so sold on that....
  2. indercarnive

    indercarnive Well-Known Member

    its all about board control. if you can g-booster to knock out your opponent active, and they cant respond will a revenge KO. then have the chance too.
  3. WuBMaYNE

    WuBMaYNE You Need More Minerals

    VirGen has a favorable matchup against TDK? You could've fooled me...
  4. 170 HP EXs work out for nice math, none of the attackers are overly effective against Virizion which softens up Kyurems so that Genesect can come in and KO them, then it gets to G-Booster to take it's last prizes to boot. I have been mostly testing the TDK matchup with it recently, and I have found that it is in my favor.
  5. indercarnive

    indercarnive Well-Known Member

    tech enhanced hammer is you want. soooooooooooo good vs plasma.
  6. Serperior

    Serperior Well-Known Member

    What does everyone think about teching a Town Map in case G Booster is prized?
  7. indercarnive

    indercarnive Well-Known Member

    if it's mirror, you lose.
    if its not, the problem is you have to get the 1 of town map. testing will decide.
  8. JR_nathan

    JR_nathan Mr.3 Rings Himself

    Obviously, no one deck in this format can just over run everything in it's path.

    Actaully, TDK has the slightly favorable matchup here. This is why:

    Both decks have vunerabilities. TDK has energy vunerability with most of it's energy being Special and Silver Mirror as a direct counter. However, TDK has an answer to both via Thundurus EX/ basic Water or Lightning energy and Tool Scrapper. Both are extremely effective.

    VirGen has many vunerabilities, but it's main issue is energy availability. Without energy available to attack, each of it's main attackers are rendered useless. You could make the same argument for TDK, if it weren't for the fact tha Thundurs EX only requires a single energy to attack and Kyurem two.

    But doesn't Virizion EX only need 2 energy as well? Virizion EX isn't a Plasma Pokemon. On top of this is the issue of speed.

    TDK can, both theoretically and realistically, attack with either Thundurus or Kyurem at any given point in the game, so long as it has the necessary resources to do so. Virizion EX can also (with Plasma Badge) but Genesect can't.

    Why does this matter?

    It will take at least one turn for a Gensect to attack. A turn that Kyurem can easily capitalize on. What's more, multiple Kyurems can arise with 2 energy on them (the minimum for his lowest costing attack, Frost Spear) even after there is already a Kyurem attacking with 2-3 energies co-existing. This is much too hard a task for any Virizion/Genesect deck to accomplish with it's Genesects. Add to the mix, that Kyurem is only 1 prize card while both Virizion EX and Genesect EX are 2 prize cards, and you get an unfavorable prize trade-off.

    Agreed, but this has always been a true statement and doesn't concern TDK anymore than TDK concerns Blastoise.

    And Catcher+Tool Scrapper will do the same for the opposing. Not to mention, Garbodor may be safe from Kyurem, but Landorus and Mewtwo won't be.

    TDK is still a dominat force in our current format. How does this change in the upcoming format? What, just because Gensect can do 200 damage for only 3 energy or Silver Mirror has the ability to block off TDK entirely you expect it to wither up and die?

    To my knowledge, after the rotation there will be only 2 remaining Tier 1 decks: TDK and Blastoise. Blastoise will struggle with the soon-to-be popular VirGen, while TDK will thrive from it. So it only makes sense for the strongest deck with the least amount of competitively playable weaknesses (meanig Suicune/Silver Mirror may be a hard counter to TDK, but it cannot survive in this type of meta due to other decks that can devistate it in return) to have the most sucess, fitting the definition of an overall dominat deck.
  9. Drench

    Drench Active Member

    Sounds like a phenomenal meta. Can't wait for the season.
    SamSoldier and Shibumi like this.
  10. baby_mario

    baby_mario Doesn't even care

    About the TDK vs Genesect match up.

    You can spin the pros and cons of each deck several ways, but don't forget this . . .

    Players have had 3 months of mostly competitive play and intensive Nats/Worlds testing to refine strategies and decklist with TDK. The TDK decks we saw at Worlds were very different from the very early lists that were mostly inspired by Esa's blog. The deck lost nothing in the rotation - it has just adjusted to the presence of Virizion by dropping Laserbank for Tools/Scrappers.

    In contrast, people have only had the PLB cards for a couple of days. Any advance testing was done using proxy cards for a format that was/is largely unknown, and Japanese lists included E Switch which is out of the format (for the moment).

    The two decks are at very different stages of development/maturity. This will make a difference in current testing and early BR results. By the time the first wave of Regionals hits, we will have a more accurate idea of how the match up plays out and how it can be finessed on both sides.
    911donkey, Joai, SamSoldier and 3 others like this.
  11. Alastair

    Alastair Mr. Evil Dr. Porkchop

    Do any of you think that the two Sigilyph or the two Drifblim , if used well enough, will compete with TDK or V/ G?[DOUBLEPOST=1376767331][/DOUBLEPOST]
    What about Reshiram NXD?
  12. GreenPepper

    GreenPepper Badly addicted to League of Legends

    Drifblim gets OHKOed by Megalo Cannon, and the Sigilyphs get OHKOed by G Booster, and they can only do minimal damage back to you.
  13. baby_mario

    baby_mario Doesn't even care

    Yes, you can make a very effective counter deck with those plus Silver Mirror

    They'll never trigger a worthwhile Outrage, and Blue Flare is tough to power up fast enough (especially repeatedly) unless you have some kind of acceleration. This basically means running Reshiboar or possibly Chandelure, in which case you will get mullered by Kyurem and Blastoise decks.
  14. Drifblim will sort of wreck you. And what are you going to do against a Zebstrika NXD with a Silver Mirror on it?

    VirGen runs more energy than TDK, so TDK should be suffering from energy droughts more than VirGen. The real question is this: how hard is it in all reality to chain Genesect? Genesect on the bench with grass is all you really need. After your active is KOed, promote it, attach and Colress Machine.

    Team Plasma Badge?

    G-Booster on EXs is the route I take. I also attack into a Kyurem with a Virizion to soften it up, then Catcher another one and hit it with Virizion, then sweep 2 Kyurem with 1 Genesect. Genesect deals with Kyurem fine.

    And having to Catcher Garbodor is another turn that you are getting smacked in the face with an EX. Terrakion also brings the smackdown on Thundurus.

    No. But it will not be winning everything like you make it sound like it will be doing, it will have a lot of competition.

    3, actually. VirGen, TDK and Blastoise.

    Blastoise struggles with VirGen how? Kyurem OHKOs Blastoise, but that doesn't mean Blastoise struggles with TDK.

    After 2 and 1/2 months of testing VirGen, I have found that it has a 55-45 matchup Vs. TDK, in VirGen's favor.
  15. indercarnive

    indercarnive Well-Known Member

    t2 blizzard burn on a benched genesect. game go down hill. and have to burn 2 energy just for a 1 prize kyurem is a lot. you imply that you can get 3 turns in the beginning pressure free to emerald slash at least twice. it wont happen against plasma. t1 i am either hitting you with an absol, a thundurus, or a kyurem.
    Ziggmiceter and Joai like this.
  16. Ziggmiceter

    Ziggmiceter Ultimate 6P tournament procrastinator

    honestly laughed.
    Theme decks run more energy than Plasma, does that mean they can beat it? And to answer the "real question" that's the problem with the deck. It's insanely hard to chain Genesect without Energy Switch in format.
    JR_nathan and jeffrey3421 like this.
  17. GreenPepper

    GreenPepper Badly addicted to League of Legends

    Virizion is still a more powerful accelerator than Thundurus, and you can get T2 G Booster just as easily as TDK can get T2 Blizzard burn.
  18. Ziggmiceter

    Ziggmiceter Ultimate 6P tournament procrastinator

    "Today on made up statistics"
    This is probably the falsest probability statement I've heard a Pokemon player say, and there are a lot of false probablility statements I hear. Implying you use Virizion as your accelerator, no, that is not true at all. Do you want me to spell out why?
  19. TylerLindsey

    TylerLindsey Road to DC.

    Looking at this thread so far, I'm quite surprised there has yet to be any mention of a possible 1-2 Deoxys EX to allow you to hit magic numbers.

    There are exceptions, of course, but generally you are not going to be ecstatic about using G-Booster if it is only netting you one prize card.

    A single Deoxys EX on the bench turns your Megalo Cannon into a 110 + 20 snipe, which works out perfectly for double KO'ing Kyurems (110 to the active Kyurem, snipe the benched Kyurem for 20. Next turn, Catcher up the Kyurem with 20 damage and KO it for 110, KO'ing the now-benched Kyurem with 110 damage with the 20 snipe). While it isn't quite the same as one-shotting, it is still two attacks for two prizes, which is a very good place to be.

    There are other applications for the extra damage Deoxys EX provides of course, but I found this to be the most beneficial towards swinging the matchup in GenV's favor.
    911donkey likes this.
  20. indercarnive

    indercarnive Well-Known Member

    t2 burn all i need is kyurem t1, i need a water energy both t1 and t2. and a colress machine in one of those turns.
    t2 booster needs a virizion and a genesect t1. you need a badge, a machine, and a grass energy t1. then you need an energy t2. along with a g-booster either t1 or t2.

    hardly equal. t2 booster is possible but not as likely as t2 blizzard burn.

    as for deoxys i like running a few. easing off having to g-booster allows you to attach to benched genesects.
    Joai and Ziggmiceter like this.