Discussion in 'Pokemon TCG News & Gossip' started by Vablakes, Dec 12, 2013.
I like the lasandre magnazone combo
ya i know you ninja'ed me
Honestly feels a bit underpowered, truth be told. I mean, that's just an initial reaction; for all I know it will become a maxed out staple in most decks. Supporters do "a lot" right now, so giving up one for an old-school Pokémon Catcher may not be worth more than just learning to live with the flip. Then again, maybe players will split the difference or some other solution.
Yup... totally assertive and definitive post right there. >.>
Its all Theorymon, and of course dubious Theorymon at that, but I've got to wonder if some aren't connecting the dots yet, or if I am skipping numbers.
1) Flame Torch won't be a staple played in every deck, but expect it and Blacksmith to be high count cards in ever Fire Energy focused deck... and for a few decks capable of being altered to focus on Fire Energy to do just that. Two cards in hand isn't much, but its the classic formula; when you want Energy cards in your discard pile, you're actually getting a +1: -2 cards from hand, +1 card in the discard pile (where you want it), +2 cards from your deck. Even if you disagree with that, trading two cards from your hand for two new cards from your deck still keeps your deck "moving"; its a concept that is a bit foreign to Pokémon, but its how a lot of "broken" "Yu-Gi-Oh" decks ended up working; you'd play a deck with cards that were largely "net zero" or even "-1" cards, but there were so many you'd still ultimately access half of your deck while stacking tiny effects.
2) Fire Energy focused decks can now operate with no draw Supporters; Bicycle, Roller Skates, and Flame Torch provides 12 "draw" cards. Thanks to some recent Supporters, that could be huge indeed. It is a long shot, but I've got a Quad Heatmor deck in mind. XD Which leads me to...
3) True donks still require an opponent getting stuck with a 30 HP Pokémon as their only Basic and you opening with Hypnotoxic Laser/Virbank City Gym. Second turn OHKOs with a high probability of influencing the ultimate outcome of the game and a low-but-still-significant chance of winning the game via "Bench Out" are a "real" thing. You just need to get two Fire Energy into the discard pile and a third Energy (any) into hand, which leads to the next point...
4) To get Fire Energy into your discard pile first turn requires the correct build and avoiding "bad luck". There are two obvious inclusions that can each be run at a full four count: Flame Torch and Ultra Ball. You could make it nine cards by adding in Computer Search or, if you're a bit more daring, Item Finder. Remember that Random Receiver can increase your odds of getting an early game Blacksmith, and if you do go first and can't attack, Tropical Beach is ever an option (if you've got them). Oh, and if you want to improve your odds of Random Receiver hitting Blacksmith, we've got three Items that function as draw power right now.
Now we start to see a pattern; Professor's Letter generates one card of advantage, and like Darkness Energy focused decks, Fire Energy focused decks will soon have purely Trainer based methods of making use of the normally "dead" second Energy card. If you truly build a Fire Energy deck built around hitting hard and fast starting on your second turn, you can do it now and probably get by with few if any Supporters other than Blacksmith, though your mileage may vary. Remember that Bicycle and Roller Skates create a sort of insurance policy; Roller Skates means three new cards on "heads" or one more card that a follow up Bicycle draws.
Now imagine all of this backing Delphox and any solid Fire attacker. Thanks to classical Reshiram, second turn a Fire Energy focused deck built to "go off" quickly can try for 120 points of damage... and if you want to make it riskier, one of the new Chariard EX cards would need a Double Colorless Energy and a successful Blacksmith but it could hit for 150.
My opinion on the newer cards
Charizard EX number 1 is mediocre, number 2 is bad
Both M-Charizard EX fire and dragon are really just facepalm
Secret Ash is meh, the option to shuffle in energy along via Super rod is much better, and why would you need to send 5 pokemon back to your deck?
Flame Torch might be used in Emboar like Bike in Darkrai, though I'm not sure on what to think of this card
Blacksmith is outclassed by just regular Energy Retrieval in Emboar, seeing as it can only attach to fire pokemon. But if there are some other Fire Support Pokemon and a decent fire attacker, maybe...
Lysandre is decent. Reason why I say decent is because Magnezone MIGHT be playable with all these non-draw supporters coming out. Also a good counter to Trevenant when not running Genesect EX or Ninetails DRX
Goodra is under average. The ability to lock out Garbodor and Muscle band might be niche, but for a stage 2 is bad, especially when Tool Scrapper exists. Maybe when Tool Scrapper gets rotated
Protect Cube is something I won't touch on, seeing as right now we don't have any decent recoil hitters outside M-Charizard EX Y and Zekrom LTR, but this set has the potential to release a good attacker that hits for recoil. For now, mediocre
Does anyone think that a 2-2-2 line of magnezone plus some extra non draw supporters like lasandre will be a staple in decks?
I would expect some decks to try to make room for it, but I'd hardly consider it a "staple". Most decks have a tough time sparing a single space for a tech, much less 6 spaces for a card that gives you a less-floppy Catcher.
Who has room for that?
Not set up decks that need to focus on getting their main Stage 2 out first.
Not rush decks that don't have the time to bother with it.
The downfall of Dual Brains Magnezone is that you have to run extra Supporters alongside it. These clog the hand, especially early game, and you are more than likely to end up Junipering them t1-2. If it was a Stage 1, then maybe it could have been good. As it is, you lose 6-10 spaces in your deck and make it a crapton more clunky just to be able to pull off one or two fancy tricks. Might as well just run 4 Catcher. Odds are the effect is the same and you haven't wrecked your list trying to fit them in.
I completely agree with that, as I just quit Yugioh for this. When I quit, the best deck pretty much just got half of their deck into the discard and used that as a fuel of sorts to get out big monsters that kept reviving themselves. They also used a lot of draw power to get access to their whole deck while dumping cards into the discard. So yeah, I think flame torch has a lot of potential.
Flame Torch and Blacksmith work well with Entei for a Red Rush deck. With ten draw supporters and Bicycle the deck will be rather stable and Entei complements the theme since the second attack also accelerates from the discard. Now we need a flexible Fire Basic that can hit harder than Entei to have a Red version of Dark Rush.
Poor Virizion Genesect...
To keep the discussing going, I want to respond to some statements that I question the veracity of, don't understand or wish to expound upon.
We "older" players were used to having the option of sending five cards from the discard back to the deck, consisting of Pokémon and/or basic Energy cards for a good chunk of the game, albeit as a Supporter. Not getting any Energy versus being an Item might be okay given we have Superior Energy Retreivel. As an example, two copies of Sacred Ash can cover the discard costs of four copies of Superior Energy Retrieval so long as you can supply the cards in the correct order... plus you'll get two more Pokémon back as a "bonus". Plenty of decks run TecH Pokémon or "spares", and with Ultra Ball and Professor Juniper remaining key parts of most decks, there might be more of a need for mass Pokémon reclamation from the discard pile, even if its going to the deck and not the hand.
Other than lack of space (always a valid concern), explain to me why it would not be used in a deck that should have not only adequate Fire Energy to pay the cost but also an effective means of getting said Energy back into hand via Item (Superior Energy Retrieval)? That's before factoring in Blacksmith. Speaking of which...
I really think you need to reconsider 'Badorsmash in Inferno Fandango decks. Hopefully the painfully forced nickname I gave it explains its usage adequately; spare Energy acceleration that easily works in your pre-existing deck should (again) only be skipped due to lack of space unless your primary form is essentially infallible.
Magnezone with Dual Brain "might" be playable because of several cards we've received this set and last. For example, Delphox provides the kind of draw support that allows you to focus Items on more specific search (for setting up two Stage 2 Pokémon reliably) while a decent chunk of the Supporters are like Lysandre and Team Flare Grunt. If one can figure out how to make the deck run on Fire Energy (probably not a huge feat), you can slap Blacksmith in there as well.
Possibly, but probably not; after all if Garbotoxin is already in effect, Goodra completely fails at its main job.
Mostly agree, but remember that "recoil attackers" need to hit themselves so hard that you wouldn't be apt to profit more from Hard Charm. For example Zekrom would hit still do 10 to itself this way, but your opponent also will do 20 less (unless they discard Hard Charm). You've got to hit yourself really hard and have a good enough return that you're still ahead after using Protect Cube instead of some other attacker/Tool combination.
No, though I am hopeful Dual Brain decks will become a "thing", if a 1-0-1 line already wasn't "good" enough for most decks, I doubt this will make a difference... especially because you could just run a 1-0-1 line of Delphox for a free "Bianca" each turn regardless of how many Supporters are in your hand. Note that doesn't mean Delphox is going to be that popular; just showing that there is a better choice if such a play becomes a "serious" option.
Exactly what do you mean by "flexible"? There are a few Fire Basic Pokémon to which Blacksmith may give new life. Including some already stated in this thread:
Heatmor (BW: Plasma Storm 23/135)
Reshiram (Blue Flare... so many printings XD)
Heatmor just wishes we had a good way of stacking Fire Energy on top of the deck, though running a high Fire Energy count, the right Trainer Engine (to promote thinning the deck of all but Energy), and a solid chance at "coming back from behind" as you're using a small, easily searched out Basic Pokémon the deck can (albeit it only four or five times) power up in a single turn from scratch and would love to get an opponent practically top decking via a well timed N.
Moltres is "useful average"; while a tad overpriced it still can 2HKO most Pokémon-EX (and of course OHKO the Fire Weak) and is just barely large enough to be a less-than-easy OHKO. Moltres EX might breed an interesting new Plasma deck (or revive it if you were trying to make Moltres EX work the whole time). Thanks to Professor's Letter, you can still likely make a Fire Energy focused deck that isn't running "that" much Fire Energy... hopefully leaving room for typical Team Plasma shenanigans, like Deoxys EX to boost damage and Colress Machine/Plasma Energy. An extremely good opening hand could get you to the point of OHKOing an opposing Pokémon-EX on your second turn without exploiting Weakness.
Reshiram really is pretty obvious; 120 for three isn't as impressive as it once was, but its still a threat. Muscle Band allows it to take out opposing Evolutions in one shot (most of the time); Hypnotoxic Laser and Virbank City Gym mean any Evolution is gone, and both take down all but the biggest Pokémon-EX in one shot. Reshiram EX may not be as "cool" as Charizard, but again with the right backing you can be OHKOing opposing Pokémon-EX while having a good shot at surviving the next turn to do it again! Victini EX can be used as (somewhat risky) additional Energy acceleration and... honestly that's about it, but I felt bad not mentioning it. XD
Again, all 100% pure Theorymon, and we are talking vague ideas, not actual decks.
Reshiram seems to be the best contender to work with Entei Ex in a Fire Rush deck. With Silver Bangle and Lasers he can ohko for no more than three energies which could make the deck fast enought.
Lysandre is for screwing with Trainer lock decks.
Dual Brains isn't going to work.
So TPCi has decided to shoot down Trevenant about 3 months after it's release...nice.
Not tpci... pokemon japan people
Delphox would seem the obvious card to pair with Flame torch/Blacksmith combo. Depending on what gets released in the upcoming set Reshiram/Entei EX seem like the best attackers.
So RayBoar is the next Darkrai/Sableye.
I could see something like Delphox/Entei EX being solid. Flame Torch is really solid alongside Prof Letter, and it makes Blacksmith a just-acceptable use for a supporter (incidentally, I really like the idea of having non-supporter draw options and non-draw power supporters). Delphox is great to make up for your supporter use, and is a good non-discarding fire attacker as well. I could even see something like a 1-0-1 Magnezone line in the deck. Not saying it's BDIF, but maybe a tier 2 deck? also, it needs a good Trevenant answer and probably something to beat Blastoise, but perhaps straight consistency can handle them.
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