Wild Blaze [JPN] // Flashfire [ENG]

Discussion in 'Pokemon TCG News & Gossip' started by Vablakes, Dec 12, 2013.

  1. Professor_N

    Professor_N Well-Known Member

    Toxicroak is going to be annoying more than anything. It can't win vs. Virizion Genesect (unless you can keep a Garbodor), and even though the Poison damage is annoying and can add up fast, if the opponent switches out of it (which is likely) you aren't getting anywhere really.
  2. Otaku

    Otaku Well-Known Member

    Feel free to explain why it is overrated. I've heard a few people talking about it, and since I think it looks terrible, to me its overrated. XD Wouldn't be the first time I was wrong, of course.

    Edit: Correction, feel free to explain why Toxicroak EX is overlooked/underrated. This might have been a Freudian slip on my part, or the simple blending of two synonyms creating an antonym. >.>
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2014
  3. thflame

    thflame Member

    I think people see the synergy with Dragalge and Virbank.

    Unfortunately, any deck that plays Virizion EX would basically auto win without Garbodor and Garbodor clashes with Dragalge.

    It's basically a faster Crobat Deck, but Virizion happened.
  4. ThePirateKingAtomsk

    ThePirateKingAtomsk Red Haze Stalker

    Screw toxicroak. I'm playing Carnivine.
    Professor_N likes this.
  5. Otaku

    Otaku Well-Known Member

    Crobat was a deck? ;)

    Kidding aside, how competitive were Crobat decks? No, really: feeling lazy and if I am stupidly missed its rise to prominence, might as well learn now. It does sound like you understand what's wrong with the combo but for those that think Toxicroak EX is being sold short...

    I compare Toxicroak EX to Tornadus EX (the original, not the Team Plasma affiliated one). For (CC) it can place three damage counters on the Defending Pokémon; with Virbank City Gym in play it becomes five. No worrying about Resistance. No benefit from hitting Weakness. Tornadus EX can use Blow Through to do 30 for (CC), or 60 if any Stadium is in play; unless you're using older cards there is no bonus for Weakness or penalty for hitting Resistance, because in Modified Colorless Weakness/Resistance no longer exists.

    Toxicroak EX cannot use Hypnotoxic Laser or Muscle Band in conjunction with its first attack... well it can but all its getting out of Hypnotoxic Laser is Sleep if the coin flips go your way as the Poison will be replaced by Triple Poison's triple Poison, and as the attack does no damage Muscle Band has nothing to which it can add. Tornadus EX and its Blow Through attack can combine with both; using the same Virbank City Gym we were planning on to jack up the damage counters from Triple Poison can combine to further jump effective damage!

    Both have the same HP and Retreat Cost. Toxicroak EX has the dangerous and easily exploited Psychic Weakness, Tornadus EX has the dangerous but not quite as easily exploited Lightning Weakness; due to the popularity of Yveltal EX and (to a lesser extent) Yveltal, more players are trying to tap the latter so for the sake of argument I'll call it a wash (to claim Lightning Weakness is worse will require someone convince me). Unless something really punishes Resistance, Tornadus EX wins that hands down because it has one, and its even a somewhat useful one against Fighting Types; Toxicroak EX has none at all.

    For (PPC) Toxicroak EX can use Smash Uppercut. This would have been great several years ago, but by modern pricing its hitting for about 10 less damage than it really needed just to be "adequate", though if you do go to the trouble of running Hypnotoxic Laser, the Virbank City Gym you are probably already playing will get this into 2HKO range (yay?). The big problem is that no one in R&D at TPCi wants to accept they've made Resistance so under-powered that its an almost worthless bonus effect. Technically it is better than nothing, but generally an attack with a beneficial effect costs more/hits for less than an attack with no effect at all; 80 for (PCC) and no effect or 90 for the printed (PPC) would have been more useful, and obviously hitting for 100 would accomplish the same end result unless we see something pump up Resistance.

    Tornadus EX on the other hand hits for 100 points of damage guaranteed for just (CCC), and while there is a drawback it is coin flip based; you'll have to discard an Energy card but only an average of about half the time. If Tornadus EX gets KOed before your next turn, barring an effect like Exp. Share, the Energy just ends up where it was going anyway. Thanks to multiple cards that do more damage based on the Energy in play (sometimes all Energy, sometimes just Energy attached to Actives or to the opponent's Active), the discard can even help you... but that is pretty rare. Still, reliable 100 is a lot better than reliable 80 for a more restrictive cost.

    Right now, there isn't much useful for boosting Psychic-Type Pokémon, unless I have forgotten something: Gardevoir (Psychic Mirage version) didn't really pan out. Aspertia City Gym is there as an option if you don't fancy using Virbank City Gym (or another useful Stadium). There is the slight benefit that Toxicroak EX itself can exploit Psychic Weakness... but that still only brings its "big" attack to 160, so you'll need to boost it a little more to (for example) OHKO a Mewtwo EX and if your opponent has another Mewtwo EX or a Deoxys EX prepped, Toxicroak EX is going down. As the boosting cards don't combo with Triple Poison, this is another problem, though I do have to acknowledge that despite being of questionable benefit, it is still of some benefit.

    Dragalge is a 100 HP Dragon-Type Stage 1, only useful for Evolving and for its Ability. Said Ability only blocks manually retreating of Poisoned Pokémon. Even assuming Garbodor w/Garbotoxin takes a fatal hit from Startling Megaphone and just stops seeing play, there are a lot of things that makes this effect underwhelming:
    1. A Stage 1 is enough of an investment to potentially improve odds of a OHKO; this kind of is a format with a lot of OHKOs, after all and blocking a Retreat only matters when you fail to KO the opponent's Active before their turn begins.
    2. Various switching and healing cards; remember that unlike Snorlax [Plasma], Keldeo EX can Rush in and Retreat because it isn't Poisoned.
    3. Virizion EX can block being Poisoned to begin with.
    4. On the odd chance you get something that can Evolve up front and Poisoned but not KOed... yeah that gets rid of the Poison effect as well.
    TL;DR: There are many Pokémon-EX that with similar investments have a much better return.
    Salamencetrainer34 likes this.
  6. StormFront

    StormFront Active Member

    I assume you meant under rated? It can be splashed into any deck, and with Virbank it can do 50 poison damage between turns. It's not a card to base a deck around, or even as a supporting attacker, but certainly could be a useful surprise tech.
  7. thflame

    thflame Member

    Crobat wasn't very competitive because it was too slow. (My wife did win a tournament with it....once.) If Toxicroak had been released back before Plasma, it probably would have been a decent deck.

    While I do think you may be overlooking the benefit of 50 damage between turns, and the fact that most people only play 1 or 2 switching cards other than float stone, I agree that the concept isn't Tier 1 by any stretch of the imagination.
  8. Googleplex

    Googleplex Rule #3: Wear your heart on your cheek

    Toxicroak's main niche is being a basic Pyroar counter that only requires a DCE.

    It's likely not worth including, as the decks that can fit it (Dark) aren't going to suddenly beat "hard-core" Pyroar with one Croak anyway.
  9. infernaperocks

    infernaperocks A Proud Member Of Team Rouge!

    does no one get that plenty of decks can counter Pyroar? Rayboar can send up delphox, Yveltal, can have things like teched raichu, Blastoise if needed can use the stoise and VirGen can probably tech in something as well, sure its 2-4 extra cards but with only needing that I doubt Pyroar will go far.
  10. Googleplex

    Googleplex Rule #3: Wear your heart on your cheek

    Hi! I get that many decks counter Pyroar! I was also trying to say that some decks don't have an out to Pyroar, and Toxicroak does actually have some merit!

    Really don't appreciate the condescending start to your post.
  11. infernaperocks

    infernaperocks A Proud Member Of Team Rouge!

    sorry... I was just getting a bit annoyed with so many people making such a big deal about pyroar without good testing/results. I'm sorry if I offended you I just wanted to get it out there that alot of the popular archetypes do have an out.

    And I agree that Toxicroak does have merit, just like you and others have said before, only as a tech to help out.
  12. Otaku

    Otaku Well-Known Member

    Thanks for pointing out my typo StormFront, and for a quick reality check on Crobat decks, thflame.

    Toxicroak EX suffers because it was designed to abuse first turn attacks. The current firs turn rules prevent it from doing so... which is overall a good thing, though I'd rather the card design team thought things through and stopped making cards that require such hamfisted first turn rules to begin with: I am a big proponent of first turn attacks being an important part of setting up and not also being on a big Basic Pokémon that is a main attacker (it is a "balance" thing). At least as it does not do actual damage (exploiting the badly broken Weakness mechanic of the TCG), it wouldn't have been quite as hypothetically overpowering.

    Still, I have to maintain, it is overrated if anything.

    1) If does not provide five damage counters in the way Hypnobank provides three; you're using an attack based combination which means no other attacks can stack onto it, save an opponent remaining Poisoned but not being KOed before you use a second, follow-up attack. This is really important; it is why only a few set-up attacks of the many printed are actually worth it, and why almost none are on Evolutions.

    2) I believe there are better counters to Pyroar, if such a thing even becomes a major concern. Pyroar has a definite "Metagame" vibe to it, like Garbotoxin decks did for a while. I suspect that perhaps after an initial flare up of interest, things will cool down and Pyroar decks will be used by those hoping to get lucky or that have crazy skill at reading the metagame and encounter one wholly under prepared.
  13. Phoenix15

    Phoenix15 I Flew Into a Burning Ring Of Fire...

    What about a Klinklang/Aromatisse with Pytoar teched in? (Deck wise)
  14. TheMantyke

    TheMantyke CharXzone EX

    My local walmart broke street date! Pretty neat. I haven't seen a list of the Mystic Typhoon theme deck's contents reveal yet, so here's a photo I took in the store:
    [spoiler][​IMG] [/spoiler]
  15. Floral

    Floral Member

    That has some really good cards. Wierd.
    Gelato likes this.
  16. HighShroomish

    HighShroomish Wreck-It Ralts

    I might have to get that, seeing as how it would get me good stuff and water energy(the only energy other metal I don't have at least 12 of)
    Gelato likes this.
  17. Salamencetrainer34

    Salamencetrainer34 An ogre-achiever

    Interesting deck. Cards seem pret-- Milotic? Yes! Everyone elses target selling FLF products,
  18. OshaWaterBottle

    OshaWaterBottle Active Member

    Wait, what the heck? The mega's have different versions of the same card? What is the difference between a gold border the outer part of the card?
  19. Drench

    Drench Active Member

    Prerelease for me tomorrow. Any suggestions for this draft. Goto pokemon to use.
  20. Salamencetrainer34

    Salamencetrainer34 An ogre-achiever

    Snorlax be OP. Use a deck with whatever EX you pull and 39 of the energy it uses.

    @OshaWaterBottle , in Wild Blaze, the secret rare had the native language of the card as the attack print (Instead of Charizard X saying Wild Blaze, it said 野生ブレイズ)
    The english secret rare, decided eh, why not just keep the japanese language. Makes everything easier. (Mega kangaskhan SR does look amazing though)