Discussion in 'Pokemon TCG News & Gossip' started by Googleplex, Sep 20, 2013.
It was a misunderstanding on my part.
Thanks for owning up to it. Of course, this still doesn't explain why the possibility of placing up to 12 damage counters a turn on the opponent field as you like (save in increments of three) is apparently failing, which brings us back to "setting up 3-4 Stage 2 Pokémon ASAP is hard". >_< This isn't like getting Empoleon or Garchomp out where you can make do with a single copy for several turns or (in the case of the latter) don't actually want to get them all out at once; such a simple but obvious difference is probably the answer that I seek.
I tested it a little bit, the problem actually isn't consistency at all, but it's space and firepower you get from that space. To knock out 3 EXs, you normally need 510-540 damage. You play Dusknoir that helps you hit certain numbers, but that's 17-18 Water Shurikens without attacking in a deck that only has space for 10 Water. To win a game, you have to use all your Water, and a combination of 2 SER/Super Rod. At first you think "Why don't you also do 50 per turn?" but the fact is, you'll want to beach 90% of the time, since you constantly have to draw into Water.
1) Why play Dusknoir? Water Shurkien places 3 damage counters; is an entire Stage 2 worth it to avoid no more than two damage counters of overkill?
2) Is making room for Dusknoir perhaps why keeping yourself flush with Energy is so difficult? Superior Energy Retrieval, Energy Retrieval, Professor's Letter, Skyla, general draw Supporters: while I am not saying to run all of these in the same deck, some combination should allow you to constantly cycle the same 10 or so Water Energy cards... or perhaps the deck just has to bear with it and run more Water Energy?
3) If we approach this different, so that you can build the deck without relying on Tropical Beach (which seems really risky) and actually throw up an appropriate Basic Pokémon to attack, can't that be used instead of Dusknoir to more accurately hit HP scores as well as free up uses of Water Shuriken to begin attacking "other" things.
Now... I have zero play experience with this deck. I tried to ask questions and not make assertions, because this way you (Ziggmiceter) or anyone else with such experience can educate me, point out the folly in my thinking. I'll tell you right now I just wish I could figure out a good way to power-up Kyurem with Glaciate and Outrage: using Water Shuriken to shore up spread damage seems like a good plan, but getting (WWC) onto Kyurem seems most unlikely. Getting back to my original tact, however, throwing up an Outrage Dragon, especially if you are able to Type-Match, means not might you be able to make an opponent "push" for a single Prize KO, but if they try to only "nearly" score a KO, you can hopefully drop a DCE and Outrage for profit.
I played it a little when XY scans came out to see if it's good, so I'm by no means an expert, but I do draw a lot of analysis from playing decks. I completely forgot why I played Dusknoir; I initially didn't have it but I decided I needed it. You only need a 1-0-1, and it seems like it would help you take a KO when you want to (example: they retreat their Thundurus or Darkrai they were using and get the energy off of it somehow. If they don't Max Potion immediately, you can target other threats.) I would say there's no way to build a Greninja deck not around Beach simply because you want to set up 4+ Stage 2s a game. Given the alternate options this format, there's not much. Colress is your best option in this deck because you want to draw as many cards as you can to hit the Rare Candy+Greninjas and Waters ASAP.
Still lost on Dusknoir; it only seems prudent if you're intentionally spreading damage out and holding off on KOs (a risky strategy) or as stated, if one or two damage counters worth of "overkill" are more vital than I realize. Why is the opponent retreating an issue at all? Water Shuriken lets you place three damage counters on the opponent's Pokémon of your choice: if my opponent retreats an Active Thundurus EX or Darkrai EX, it can still be targeted by Water Shuriken. Of course if it isn't damaged enough that even a full four Water Shuriken can finish it off... Dusknoir still needs the required "spare" damage counters in play already.
Please note that I was not disallowing Tropical Beach use the first few turns of the game... but did you consider dropping Dusknoir for Delphox? Still a Stage 2, but now its draw power that according to your own account the deck badly needs, instead of damage counter movement it can probably make do without. I also wonder if players aren't accepting that risky deck is risky... and running Bicycle and Roller Skates. If planning a deck around Tropical Beach usage so that it rarely ever attacks is a "thing", gotta think that the flip on Roller Skates can't be that much scarier... or should the "meatshield attacker" I keep suggesting itself just have great draw or search options? Holding this up as an example against my better judgment, but instead of a Stage 2... what about Tornadus EX [Plasma] being used for its first attack? If possible, max out on Max Potion as well.
Again, you are coming from real experience, so if you know I am wrong, go ahead and tell me. Sounds like brutal set-up demands are keeping this from working, otherwise.
This deck doesn't have time to take "dead" prizes, as it's hard to take 6 prizes before your opponent does. A thundurus with no energy on the bench is a "dead" prize as your opponent doesn't really care if you knock it out, as long as there's still energy on the board and they still have an attacker. Also, Max Potion is insanely bad for this deck if you pile all your damage on one Pokemon, so you need to spread damage out versus decks that you think play it.
1) Not sure what you mean by "dead Prize". I know you explained it, but I still don't get it. A Thundurus EX with no Energy on the Bench is still worth two Prizes when KOed, and cannot be sent up to attack later. It may no longer be an optimal Prize, but it is hardly a "dead Prize". Not trying to bust your chops over semantics, but hopefully you can understand my confusion over the term.
2) Two Prizes is two Prizes... your opponent may not immediately lose from it and may prefer it was targeted over something else, but it still matters. If you're rushing to take six Prizes... you're rushing to take six Prizes. It sounds like you're more concerned with preventing your opponent from taking Prizes, which I can understand.
3) Now, here is where my Theorymon probably fails; my assumption is that if you can't KO something that turn, you're not putting more than half its HP worth of damage counters (barring rounding issues) on it unless you are trying to set-up for a KO the next turn. Max Potion makes it too risky to try hold off until you can take several Prizes in a turn, to better manipulate effects like N. So having something with 180 HP Max Potion 90 points of damage off hurts... but I'd be more worried about Super Potion or really any "small" healing that will force an extra Water Shuriken... especially if that is one more Water Shuriken than I can use that turn.
Still, this is why I want the deck to also attack; three Water Shuriken means a 180 HP Pokémon just needs to take 90 points of damage. My naivete may be that there is no good attacker to plug into this situation; I had hoped Outrage might be enough (when the attacker using it isn't a OHKO for the opponent).
I'm just laughing so hard at this.
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